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Author Topic: Dolomites West October 2015  (Read 17034 times)

Petrus

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Re: Dolomites West October 2015
« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2015, 05:18:42 am »

Cheaper, but wholly pointless. You could create a washed-out, desaturated scene which you wouldn't know didn't resemble the original because you'd not bothered to go there. What would that prove?

Jeremy

There are several threads going on even now about the minute differences between RAW converters and nanometer level discussions about the accuracy of sensor color filters. That would be quite pointless unless there were neutral settings for camera/converter combinations, which produce the most accurate reproduction of a given scene (people seem to spend countless hours shooting colorimetric targets for this). So I am in belief that doing a straight conversion with neutral settings would actually give a fairly good idea about what the scene really was like.

If it is no so why measure sensor color gamuts and what not if they are meaningless?
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jeremyrh

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Re: Dolomites West October 2015
« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2015, 05:34:40 am »

Cheaper, but wholly pointless. You could create a washed-out, desaturated scene which you wouldn't know didn't resemble the original because you'd not bothered to go there. What would that prove?

Jeremy
Indeed. Added to which NOBODY here, not even Hans, has claimed that his images represent an objectively accurate portrayal of the colours present when he took the pictures. That's sort of the point. Hans took the shots, processed them according to what he wished to communicate, and then Petrus came by with his casual 4-word criticism which adds nothing to any discussion.
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Dolomites West October 2015
« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2015, 05:49:05 am »

Hans,
Great stuff as always. My solution to those who don't like saturation is go there and judge the palette for themselves. If it is to intense for there liking convert to B and W  ;D

dolomites b and w

Happy New Year to all
Sam

Thanks Sam and your advice is good :) And Happy New Year to you and all.

Hans Kruse

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Re: Dolomites West October 2015
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2015, 05:55:34 am »

Indeed. Added to which NOBODY here, not even Hans, has claimed that his images represent an objectively accurate portrayal of the colours present when he took the pictures. That's sort of the point. Hans took the shots, processed them according to what he wished to communicate, and then Petrus came by with his casual 4-word criticism which adds nothing to any discussion.

Yes, that's the point. I'm not into documentary landscape photography. Looking at the internet, not many are. Even those who claim (directly or indirectly) that they document what they saw it is clear from looking at most of such pictures that the selection of viewpoint, framing and time of day there is a desire to communicate a feeling of the landscape. The socalled neutral representation does not exist in my opinion. No matter what the photographer does he will put his/hers personal touch on it. The same goes for any documentary photography and PJ work that I have seen. They all have a bias towards what the photographer wants to communicate. It's to me interesting that this kind of discussion still goes on at the end of 2015 :)

Hans Kruse

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Re: Dolomites West October 2015
« Reply #44 on: December 31, 2015, 06:30:06 am »

It's interesting that there were no comments on anything else than saturation from those who objected to the saturation. When shooting in the early mornings before sunrise or just around the sunrise those who have experienced it will know that not only can the colors be extremely saturated. We often comment to each other that the colors are so saturated to nobody will believe it. But the other and more important point is that when the sky is not only saturated but also bright the landscape itself may be very dark. It can be hard to even see the landscape with the eyes unless one hides the sky and let the eyes adjust to see the landscape. Therefore to even show the landscape it is necessary to adjust the exposure and the tone curve to compensate for the huge difference in light intesnsity. Some do it while shooting using graduated ND filters and others (like myself) do it by blending or adjust with local adjustments in post processing.

The second picture exposed to just the clipping limit in the sky is attached as a neutral conversion using Lightroom. Neutral means AWB from the camera and all sliders in the zero position. The camera profile was camera standard. I would assume nobody would find such an image interesting despite it being neutrally converted and thus for some people to be regarded as a documentary shot. But in fact it is not because that's definitely not how our eyes were seeing this scene. The second attachment shows an exposure exposed 5 stops higher than the first. So blending the shots can show the entire tonal range. But is this realistic? Yes, and no. Will it be possible to make a picture? Yes, absolutely, but where to draw the line between something believable and something artificial. That's the choice of the photographer and therefore the post processing is an essential part of making a picture. What I personally do in post processing a picture like this is to give the impression of a sunrise and also how the light comes in and illuminates the landscape. Probably like a painter would do if he was trying to paint one moment from that morning. I can't imagine anybody disagreeing on what I say here. But what do I know ?  :D ;)

In any case Happy New Year to you all and see you here on Lula or elsewhere in 2016!

Chairman Bill

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Re: Dolomites West October 2015
« Reply #45 on: December 31, 2015, 06:57:37 am »

The only criteria by which I judge a photograph, is aesthetics. If it is aesthetically pleasing, nothing else really matters, and aesthetics is a wholly subjective consideration. And I might not know much about photography, but I know what I like.

Another point is that the people who'll complain about processing leaving a photograph looking unreal, only do so in regard to colour images. No one ever says it about B&W. Funny that.

stamper

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Re: Dolomites West October 2015
« Reply #46 on: December 31, 2015, 07:13:55 am »

The only criteria by which I judge a photograph, is aesthetics. If it is aesthetically pleasing, nothing else really matters, and aesthetics is a wholly subjective consideration. And I might not know much about photography, but I know what I like.

Another point is that the people who'll complain about processing leaving a photograph looking unreal, only do so in regard to colour images. No one ever says it about B&W. Funny that.

Bill I disagree about you knowing little about photography but I agree about the rest of your post. A point in general, and not aimed at anyone in particular is that I believe that jealousy is a factor. Some photographers complain about processed images and wish they had the skills to do the same. They don't and take the negative view that all images shouldn't be processed and left as they were, straight out of the camera. This attitude comes from mostly film photographers. If this was to happen it would be more of a level playing field and the jealous photographers would compete better when praise for images is getting handed out. Hans made a very pertinent point that even if someone doesn't like an image or the processing they should have at least have respect for the image unless of course it is "awful"
There is a difference between critiquing and nitpicking. :(

john beardsworth

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Re: Dolomites West October 2015
« Reply #47 on: December 31, 2015, 07:30:13 am »

Another point is that the people who'll complain about processing leaving a photograph looking unreal, only do so in regard to colour images. No one ever says it about B&W.

Generally true, yes, but that's not saying much. It's merely because by its nature B&W can't usually mislead the viewer to think its greyscale tones are what the photographer saw.
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kers

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Re: Dolomites West October 2015
« Reply #48 on: December 31, 2015, 07:33:53 am »

Hans,

Thanks for sharing these photos and the way you work on them.
I like the Dolomites as well since they are such expressive mountains. Combined with the sunset and well done HDR techniques they are almost too much to grasp in terms of beauty and color.

The colors in landscapes and flowers are often very saturated; often we simply cannot even reproduce them.
I remember some places i have been too were the colors were overwhelming;
in iceland ; The blue sky i saw there i have never seen anywhere else - a very deep intense blue.
On the Arabic mediterranean shoreline. Algiers as an example; The sunsets bring about a special light/ atmosphere. I cannot put my finger on it but every time i am there it grabs me.
Just before sunrise in the Sahara desert. A place were you can actually feel the force of the sun when it rises.  A giant red curved glow at the horizon with intense blue above.
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Petrus

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Re: Dolomites West October 2015
« Reply #49 on: December 31, 2015, 07:43:55 am »

Another point is that the people who'll complain about processing leaving a photograph looking unreal, only do so in regard to colour images. No one ever says it about B&W. Funny that.

Ansel the Great made several versions of his Moonrise over Hernandez, some of them more "processed" than others. I certainly like some of them better than others.

I have sometimes pointed out how ugly over processed (with LR clarity, NIK "wet rock") B&W looks when used on street photography. That kind of B&W processing was of course not possible during the film era, just like excessive saturation was not possible either, unless retorting to complicated and expensive dye transfer & layering processes. Now both are possible with single slider or few clicks of the mouse, so of course they get misused. I admit I use clarity and vibrance adjustments also, but too much is too much, be it chili in a soup or unnatural looking manipulations in a photograph, which is supposedly showing something real, street or scenery.
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kers

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Re: Dolomites West October 2015
« Reply #50 on: December 31, 2015, 07:49:39 am »

... I certainly like some of them better than others...

...but too much is too much...

Ok, but who is to tell? or are you thé Petrus?
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Dolomites West October 2015
« Reply #51 on: December 31, 2015, 01:16:30 pm »

Hi,

In the film days we had Velvia and Cibachrome. Although I liked them both, or at least I liked Velvia, both could produce ghastly colours…

Best regards
Erik


Ansel the Great made several versions of his Moonrise over Hernandez, some of them more "processed" than others. I certainly like some of them better than others.

I have sometimes pointed out how ugly over processed (with LR clarity, NIK "wet rock") B&W looks when used on street photography. That kind of B&W processing was of course not possible during the film era, just like excessive saturation was not possible either, unless retorting to complicated and expensive dye transfer & layering processes. Now both are possible with single slider or few clicks of the mouse, so of course they get misused. I admit I use clarity and vibrance adjustments also, but too much is too much, be it chili in a soup or unnatural looking manipulations in a photograph, which is supposedly showing something real, street or scenery.
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hubell

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Re: Dolomites West October 2015
« Reply #52 on: December 31, 2015, 02:23:52 pm »

Bill I disagree about you knowing little about photography but I agree about the rest of your post. A point in general, and not aimed at anyone in particular is that I believe that jealousy is a factor. Some photographers complain about processed images and wish they had the skills to do the same. They don't and take the negative view that all images shouldn't be processed and left as they were, straight out of the camera. This attitude comes from mostly film photographers. If this was to happen it would be more of a level playing field and the jealous photographers would compete better when praise for images is getting handed out. Hans made a very pertinent point that even if someone doesn't like an image or the processing they should have at least have respect for the image unless of course it is "awful"
There is a difference between critiquing and nitpicking. :(

It is ridiculous to suggest that the reason why many people criticize the kind of lurid, overprocessed images that are so prevalent on the internet is because they are jealous of the postprocessing "skills" that are applied to the images. Cranking up clarity and saturation and using HDR techniques in postprocessing hardly requires much skill. As for showing "respect" for the image, if that's what you are after, I suggest Flickr, where are all images are wonderful and where nobody ever says an unkind word. After all, we are talking about landscape photographs, not religious symbols.

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Dolomites West October 2015
« Reply #53 on: December 31, 2015, 03:00:31 pm »

Hi,

It may be that the images look much better on a dark grey or black blackground…

Best regards
Erik


I was in the Dolomites, with Hans, this June - highly recommended trip to anyone who can keep up with him for 9 days!

Without fail, every single time I have shown photos from this trip, someone has commented on the saturation. And I have honestly had to say I have desaturated those shots slightly, as no one would believe they were not pumped up if I just ran a straight conversion.

You've got to see the Dolomites in June to believe it with your own eyes!
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muntanela

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Re: Dolomites West October 2015
« Reply #54 on: December 31, 2015, 04:02:58 pm »

Look badly oversaturated to me.


To me and to my very poor knowledge of english language this opinion seems perfectly innocent, although the word "badly" could appear harsh ("frank" in the diplomatic Language).

I remember (I remember) that I saw a sky similar to that of the second photo, but much more “overprocessed” and with the reds extended over all the sky, in 1982 in Malcesine, on Lake Garda. I took some photographs with my Canon FTb (I was doing my military service in Verona...) and the photolab gave me photos 10X15 cm with colours not very different from those of the second photo. The vivid colours of the sky in the other photos aren't neither very rare, nor very common.
To me (to my monitor indeed) the red leaves in 9 seem a bit too red. In 2,3,4,13 to my eyes there is too great difference in brightness between the foreground (lighter) and hills, mountain walls and sky in the background (darker). This difference is present also (in not very pleasant way) in the rocky walls 4, 7, 11 (maybe) and 13, where the upper side is darker than the lower side, in this case perhaps  because of harsh blending of two exposures. Also in 6 the grass on the summit of the hill in the middle, just in front of the rocky walls, strangely appears very dark.

P.S. I admit in advance that all my photos are badly composed and oversaturated :).

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jeremyrh

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Re: Dolomites West October 2015
« Reply #55 on: December 31, 2015, 08:34:58 pm »

It is ridiculous to suggest that the reason why many people criticize the kind of lurid, overprocessed images that are so prevalent on the internet is because they are jealous of the postprocessing "skills" that are applied to the images. Cranking up clarity and saturation and using HDR techniques in postprocessing hardly requires much skill. As for showing "respect" for the image, if that's what you are after, I suggest Flickr, where are all images are wonderful and where nobody ever says an unkind word. After all, we are talking about landscape photographs, not religious symbols.
You are talking rubbish.
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stamper

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Re: Dolomites West October 2015
« Reply #56 on: January 01, 2016, 04:57:05 am »

It is ridiculous to suggest that the reason why many people criticize the kind of lurid, overprocessed images that are so prevalent on the internet is because they are jealous of the postprocessing "skills" that are applied to the images. Cranking up clarity and saturation and using HDR techniques in postprocessing hardly requires much skill. As for showing "respect" for the image, if that's what you are after, I suggest Flickr, where are all images are wonderful and where nobody ever says an unkind word. After all, we are talking about landscape photographs, not religious symbols.


Two posts on the forum and you are already trolling. I don't think you are going to last very long in the forum? :(

Peter_DL

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Re: Dolomites West October 2015
« Reply #57 on: January 01, 2016, 10:01:19 am »

Saturation as a single parameter is a bit strange to me. For me it is a lot more about distributing light across the frame in a way that makes it come to life. This involves contrast a lot and local adjustments. I use the tone mapping sliders a lot and use also white and black point in setting contrast. I fine tune contrast to my liking using the tone curve and not very often via the contrast slider. I use clarity sparingly and most pictures I do not touch either the saturation or vibrance sliders. The saturation in my images comes as a side effect of making the contrast and exposure and other light adjustments. I sometimes feel like taking the saturation a bit down and then drag either saturation or vibrance down but it seldomly successful and therefore it not often I do that.


This is exactly what I see with my own images as well,
sometimes I like said push of saturation and sometimes it is getting a bit too much for me. In the latter case, aside from personal taste, I think there is a particular technical background here:

LR/ACR, since Process Version 2012, allow to apply a quite steep tonal contrast, but - unlike in the past - without blocking the shadow and highlight details which can be well preserved by strong settings with the corresponding Highlights and Shadows controls.

As a side effect from the steeper tonal contrast there is a pronounced push of saturation but the effect is uneven along the tonal scale: there is more saturation added in the shadows than in the lights. A typical case is that the sky shows a nice saturated blue, whereas e.g. the shadows of mountains get blue-inked in an exaggerated way. Hence, saturation can not be re-balanced by a global saturation slider, so that I have to resort to a more selective approach.

Hope it is clear that I’m not voting for a documentary, scene-referred level of saturation here, which is often not desirable and would simply look ugly. To add saturation is among the key tools to adjust an image (in terms of a pleasing rendition) for the huge difference between the scene dynamic range vs output dynamic range (the big squeeze). So the absolute level of saturation is quite a matter of individual taste and the viewing conditions, albeit my assumption is that some relative "saturation consistency" could be more a general criterion.

Peter

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hubell

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Re: Dolomites West October 2015
« Reply #58 on: January 01, 2016, 11:10:18 am »

Two posts on the forum and you are already trolling. I don't think you are going to last very long in the forum? :(

Surely you have something more accurate and responsive to add to the discussion?

stamper

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Re: Dolomites West October 2015
« Reply #59 on: January 02, 2016, 04:26:43 am »

Surely you have something more accurate and responsive to add to the discussion?

Reply#46

Bill I disagree about you knowing little about photography but I agree about the rest of your post. A point in general, and not aimed at anyone in particular is that I believe that jealousy is a factor. Some photographers complain about processed images and wish they had the skills to do the same. They don't and take the negative view that all images shouldn't be processed and left as they were, straight out of the camera. This attitude comes from mostly film photographers. If this was to happen it would be more of a level playing field and the jealous photographers would compete better when praise for images is getting handed out. Hans made a very pertinent point that even if someone doesn't like an image or the processing they should have at least have respect for the image unless of course it is "awful"
There is a difference between critiquing and nitpicking. :(

This was my "accurate" and "responsive" reply. I didn't see the need for an abrasive reply?
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