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Author Topic: Seeing Lines  (Read 4069 times)

Rob C

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Seeing Lines
« on: December 14, 2015, 04:36:48 am »

Let me state I speak only for myself.

I think that the photography is a wonderful fusion of engineering and art; the prose, on the other hand, destroys completely the magic that she has created with her imagery. It's like having the best sex of your life, then when you can breathe normally again, turning around to your 'partner' and setting about analysing the mechanics that made it so. No, no, no!

Let pictures be pictures and leave it there.

If you want to write, or are invited so to do, stay with the general, avoid pushing out yet another artist's statement, and just be interesting, which is not easy to do when discussing something as personal as photography.

On a seasonal note: imagine that little kid's face if you tell it Santa's just a mechanical fabrication.

I repeat, those photographs are beautiful: nobody needs to break them down and ruin Christmas.

Rob C

brianrybolt

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Re: Seeing Lines
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2015, 04:45:01 am »

Let me state I speak only for myself.

I think that the photography is a wonderful fusion of engineering and art; the prose, on the other hand, destroys completely the magic that she has created with her imagery. It's like having the best sex of your life, then when you can breathe normally again, turning around to your 'partner' and setting about analysing the mechanics that made it so. No, no, no!

Let pictures be pictures and leave it there.

If you want to write, or are invited so to do, stay with the general, avoid pushing out yet another artist's statement, and just be interesting, which is not easy to do when discussing something as personal as photography.

On a seasonal note: imagine that little kid's face if you tell it Santa's just a mechanical fabrication.

I repeat, those photographs are beautiful: nobody needs to break them down and ruin Christmas.

Rob C

Very nicely stated - I'm in agreement.
Brian

Zorki5

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Re: Seeing Lines
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2015, 07:22:14 am »

the prose, on the other hand, destroys completely the magic that she has created with her imagery.

If she hung that "prose" next to her images in the gallery, I'd completely agree with you. If an image needs an explanation to be appreciated, well, ... that's a very, very bad sign. For really good images, even titles are often extraneous.

But there is nothing wrong with explaining to fellow photographers the process that went into making the image, be it composition, timing, or post-processing. Almost everything in that process is IMHO quantifiable. I'd probably go as far as saying that if one cannot explain why an image is good, or why one image is better than other, then it probably isn't.

In other words, nothing is ruined for me. In fact, I find her thought process spot on; that's something I'd try to do myself -- except that most probably won't be able to execute nearly as well as she did it.

That said, I believe that the text of the article could be shortened/simplified 2x and still remain as [if not more] informative and entertaining. So if by "prose" you meant Sharon's flowery style, then yeah, I'd have to agree.
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stamper

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Re: Seeing Lines
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2015, 07:28:00 am »

If she hung that "prose" next to her images in the gallery, I'd completely agree with you. If an image needs an explanation to be appreciated, well, ... that's a very, very bad sign. For really good images, even titles are often extraneous.

But there is nothing wrong with explaining to fellow photographers the process that went into making the image, be it composition, timing, or post-processing. Almost everything in that process is IMHO quantifiable. I'd probably go as far as saying that if one cannot explain why an image is good, or why one image is better than other, then it probably isn't.

In other words, nothing is ruined for me. In fact, I find her thought process spot on; that's something I'd try to do myself -- except that most probably won't be able to execute nearly as well as she did it.

That said, I believe that the text of the article could be shortened/simplified 2x and still remain as [if not more] informative and entertaining. So if by "prose" you meant Sharon's flowery style, then yeah, I'd have to agree.


Agreed!

Rob C

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Re: Seeing Lines
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2015, 11:11:22 am »

If she hung that "prose" next to her images in the gallery, I'd completely agree with you. If an image needs an explanation to be appreciated, well, ... that's a very, very bad sign. For really good images, even titles are often extraneous.

But there is nothing wrong with explaining to fellow photographers the process that went into making the image, be it composition, timing, or post-processing. Almost everything in that process is IMHO quantifiable. I'd probably go as far as saying that if one cannot explain why an image is good, or why one image is better than other, then it probably isn't.

In other words, nothing is ruined for me. In fact, I find her thought process spot on; that's something I'd try to do myself -- except that most probably won't be able to execute nearly as well as she did it.

That said, I believe that the text of the article could be shortened/simplified 2x and still remain as [if not more] informative and entertaining. So if by "prose" you meant Sharon's flowery style, then yeah, I'd have to agree.


No, not at all: prose was simply another word for 'text' in this case.

In my view, personal as ever, I don't care a fig for how a photographer achieves what the photographer achieves in his/her photographs. I spend a lot of my time looking through the ether for articles/websites that include photographs by people I have long admired and respected; it's a treasure trove out there if you look carefully. Many of the images are already very well known to me - after a long time in the business that's natural; it would be strange not having either the interest of knowledge - but the thing that interests me about these people is their mentality; it's in how they think about life. I really do like to understand where they grew up and why the medium drew them to it; it's illuminating finding out about their early years, the local/international politics that moulded them as well as the effect that their peers had upon them. For instance, many, if not almost all of my favourite photographers are or were Jewish. They had problems of actual, physical survival, that today's photographers in the so-called free world never face. Yet, they overcame all of that shit and went on to become stars. I don't know if it is part of Jewish heritage or not, or whether it is just luck, but it has always struck me, from the moment I realised where most of them had/have their spiritual roots, that the Jewish world owns on helluva lot of talent!

Now, writing style is what the writer does when he puts pen to paper; it comes naturally and the writer can't help himself, it's what he is. Indeed, anyone can try to write in the manner of another, but it doesn't often come off. It's a similar trap with photography, and best avoided. I've sometimes claimed not to have been influenced by anyone else in my own work, and I think I'm being honest there. But, that doesn't mean that I have closed my eyes to the work of others: on the contrary, I have consumed it with both glee and greed! Where it has best served me is in showing me fields with which I feel empathy; in other words, from seeing wonderful work, I have discovered directions that exist, paths that I might walk along in my own manner, not attempting to copy in a literal sense (impossible, anyway, because I am myself), the stars I enjoy, but the aesthetic that make me feel happy.

As an example, take the famous Pirelli calendars. The most memorable one, for me, has always been the Sarah Moon one. Why? Well, because she is a woman: she understands instinctively the gulf that separates sophistication, elegance and femininity from soft porn. I once met Derek Forsyth, AD of many Pirelli calendars, in his London office - must have been circa '80 when I was musing about leaving for a life in the Mediterranean. I mentioned the Moon calendar to him, and he told me that it had been one of the less successful ones... I think that demonstrates the difference between a male and female take on the matter of what the French call charme. Yet, to me, and I don't doubt my sexuality - such as it remains at this age! - her approach is the one I would most happily own as mine. I respect her soul, her mind, and that comes from years before she shot any calendars. In the end, her talent is not stolen by me, it isn't even borrowed: what it does is serve as a filter, keeping my own work in fashion and calendars, when it was happening, out of the gutter into which so much of that genre of photography inevitably falls.

All of which returns me to this: I would be far more interested in hearing from Sharon about what makes Sharon tick than in how she puts together any photographs. Indeed, that holds for any photographer worth bothering about.

I realise there are photographers out there who will always firmly believe that if they study somebody else long enough they will be able to do what the studied person can: it's not gonna happen; get over it and be yourself; find your own life. Don't waste your own in vain pursuit.

Rob C

Telecaster

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Re: Seeing Lines
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2015, 02:18:03 pm »

All of which returns me to this: I would be far more interested in hearing from Sharon about what makes Sharon tick than in how she puts together any photographs.

No reason why that can't be the nitty gritty of a future article. This one is a "how I make the sausage" piece. IMO there's plenty room for both.

-Dave-
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image66

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Re: Seeing Lines
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2015, 05:06:02 pm »

I appreciated reading about her thought process in creating the images. Frankly, I think we could use more of it as I learned something I didn't know before.

I guess the difference is that I'm not interested in a portfolio review. I want to learn something. But something that sets me apart from the typical LL person, I haven't "arrived" yet.

Yet, one thing that bothered me was that there seemed to be some retroactive analysis into the photographs blended with the previsualization analysis. It's that "I planned to have that cloud right there" kind of thing.

Good article, though.

Ken
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Seeing Lines
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2015, 05:31:37 pm »

... Yet, one thing that bothered me was that there seemed to be some retroactive analysis into the photographs blended with the previsualization analysis...

Pre-visualization + post-conceptualization = ??? :)

I like the article, btw.

kencameron

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Re: Seeing Lines
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2015, 06:06:49 am »

If an image needs an explanation to be appreciated, well, ... that's a very, very bad sign. For really good images, even titles are often extraneous.
This is a commonly expressed opinion, which I don't entirely share. Images can be wonderful on their own, text can be wonderful on its own, images and text can be wonderful together. Or not, as the case may be. Some of the art which interests me most combines text and images - I think of Grayson Perry (pottery, tapestry) or William Yang (photography). Many, maybe even most, of the photographs taken these days are in some way accompanied by text. Sometimes the text is extraneous but usually it is complementary. In the article under discussion I thought the photographs were of higher quality than the text, but I had no problem with the text being present and thought it complementary rather than extraneous . It was an article, after all, and they usually contain text. And as for explanation, most visual art benefits from some, and always has.
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Ken Cameron

kencameron

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Re: Seeing Lines
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2015, 06:16:36 am »

Let me state I speak only for myself.
Rob C
I am having some difficulty imagining what else you could be doing. Unless of course you had just come down a mountain and transcribed your post from "two tables of stone". Surely around here we are all speaking only for ourselves, except occasionally the administrators who speak for the site.
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Ken Cameron

Rob C

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Re: Seeing Lines
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2015, 09:51:05 am »

I am having some difficulty imagining what else you could be doing. Unless of course you had just come down a mountain and transcribed your post from "two tables of stone". Surely around here we are all speaking only for ourselves, except occasionally the administrators who speak for the site.

Indeed, Ken, but one has to be very careful and state the bleedin' obvious sometimes. If not, there's ever the risk of a malcontent seizing the moment in order to perpetuate yet another bout of mindless, verbal fisticuffs. But in truth, and with consideration, better verbal than physical. (Again, speaking for myself, and dangerously from but a metre or so above sea level.)

;-)

Rob C

Zorki5

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Re: Seeing Lines
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2015, 11:37:39 am »

This is a commonly expressed opinion, which I don't entirely share. Images can be wonderful on their own, text can be wonderful on its own, images and text can be wonderful together. Or not, as the case may be. Some of the art which interests me most combines text and images - I think of Grayson Perry (pottery, tapestry) or William Yang (photography). Many, maybe even most, of the photographs taken these days are in some way accompanied by text. Sometimes the text is extraneous but usually it is complementary.

IMHO the only two image types that justify accompanying text are PJ and technical/scientific images. An example of the latter: I once took an image of Moscow State University with Canon 5D through my telescope (7" Maksutov-Cassegrain, focal length 2,670mm) from some 15 kilometers... There's nothing special about the image except technicalities (including very flat look), but it still might be interesting to some -- if accompanied with proper explanation. Wouldn't ever display it w/o explanation.

Other than that... To me, decorating an image with text is very much like decorating roses in a bouquet with paper ribbons, butterflies, and such; some still like it, but not me :)

In the article under discussion I thought the photographs were of higher quality than the text, but I had no problem with the text being present and thought it complementary rather than extraneous . It was an article, after all, and they usually contain text. And as for explanation, most visual art benefits from some, and always has.

One thing that I found interesting about Sharon's article -- which I liked very much, overall -- was that she constantly talks about simplicity (and indeed managed to simplify her images in a beautiful way), but her writing style is what I'd call overcomplicated and flowery, it just does not match her images, in a way. So I'd agree, it can be said the text is of somewhat lower quality than images.
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Zorki5

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Re: Seeing Lines
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2015, 11:55:40 am »

IMHO the only two image types that justify accompanying text are PJ and technical/scientific images.

In recent On Street Photography article here on LuLa, Russ Lewis wrote:

Quote
Street photography often is confused with photojournalism because, in a sense, both are documentary photography. In my own understanding of the term, a street photograph must involve a story. Notice that I didn’t say, “tell a story.” A good street photograph doesn’t need to make you understand its story. Ambiguity can add to a street photograph’s impact, but a story has to be there even if its meaning is hidden.

I wholeheartedly agree. To me, this "ambiguity" part, openness to own interpretation etc. is huge part not only of street photography, but [non-PJ/scientific] photography in general.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Seeing Lines
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2015, 12:41:12 pm »

... her writing style is what I'd call overcomplicated and flowery..

Ah, if only all text would come with their own CliffsNotes or SparkNotes. We would never again have to endure the torture or reading the likes of War & Peace front to back ;)

Point being, writing reflects personality.

As Rob wanted to know what makes her tick, who she is, well, her writing reflects that. It is a testament to her artistic skills that she is able to condense such "overcomplicated and flowery" thoughts (I presume thoughts precede ink) into such a simple and elegant photography. Kudos to anyone with such a skill. By the time my own thoughts finish running around, bumping into each other, fighting, all is usually left is a job for a maintenance brigade, not ink or pixels.

Zorki5

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Re: Seeing Lines
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2015, 01:19:36 pm »

We would never again have to endure the torture or reading the likes of War & Peace front to back ;)
The style of War and Peace is... not what I'd call flowery or overcomplicated (e.g. with lots of figures of speech and such). It is still quite difficult to read though, at least in Russian: :)
1. Very long (but otherwise simple) sentences (often, a paragraph == single sentence),
2. Lots of French,
3. It's BIG!

I guess a francophone reading simplified translation might actually blaze through it, but in Russian it's... not exactly a torture (because underneath it still great), but a difficult read for sure.
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kencameron

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Re: Seeing Lines
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2015, 08:41:48 pm »


Other than that... To me, decorating an image with text is very much like decorating roses in a bouquet with paper ribbons, butterflies, and such; some still like it, but not me :)

Nothing but respect for that as a personal preference, but as a generalisation about images and text, what it misses for me is the fact that "image plus text" is a legitimate artistic genre, just like, for example, opera ("music and song plus spectacle"). And I am wondering if you would have the same personal objection to "illustrating a text with images" - ie, is your objection to anything with detracts from the primacy of an image?
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Ken Cameron

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Re: Seeing Lines
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2015, 09:27:22 pm »

"image plus text" is a legitimate artistic genre, just like, for example, opera ("music and song plus spectacle").

I agree with that. In fact, I myself was going to point out that sometimes images are used as a part of a complex medium, and in such cases the other parts of the medium should not be viewed as mere decoration. Was going to use image slideshow with music as one of the simplest possible examples of it.
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kencameron

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Re: Seeing Lines
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2015, 12:12:56 am »

I just came across a blog post in which the photographic and literary styles seem to me perfectly congruent (similarly restrained in a way which is appropriate to the subject) and in which the images don't need defending but are enhanced by what the writer says about how they were made.
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Ken Cameron

Rob C

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Re: Seeing Lines
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2015, 06:40:49 am »

I just came across a blog post in which the photographic and literary styles seem to me perfectly congruent (similarly restrained in a way which is appropriate to the subject) and in which the images don't need defending but are enhanced by what the writer says about how they were made.


Interesting link; however, it's premise is somewhat doubtful: we are all perfectly capable of hating people within our own family, never mind strangers from another race or creed. I believe that every one of us embodies all of the emotions, the entire gamut, and only via self-control do we become the people that the surface presents us to be.

We are our brother, and as Cain and Abel symobolised, it makes not a jot of difference.

Rob C

kencameron

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Re: Seeing Lines
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2015, 04:01:04 pm »


Interesting link; however, it's premise is somewhat doubtful: we are all perfectly capable of hating people within our own family, never mind strangers from another race or creed. I believe that every one of us embodies all of the emotions, the entire gamut, and only via self-control do we become the people that the surface presents us to be.

We are our brother, and as Cain and Abel symbolised, it makes not a jot of difference.

Rob C
Indeed. I would say that we are capable, in a real sense, of hating ourselves, never mind others. Which is one reason why self-knowledge has to come first, if we are to have any hope of self-control. It is hard to put out a fire when it is already fully alight (or may have been burning for years). And to come back to Mike Pasini's blog post, the hatred of the other which he identifies can surely be understood as projected self-hatred. All the qualities we hate and fear in ourselves are projected onto a group seen as different.


Time for another cup of tea, and maybe another look at some lovely photographs of bridges. More than enough pop psychology for one morning.
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Ken Cameron
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