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Author Topic: Just picked up some new LEDs :)  (Read 8817 times)

Chris Barrett

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Just picked up some new LEDs :)
« on: December 10, 2015, 05:35:02 pm »

A million years ago, when I was still at Hedrich, my go to accent light was the Arri 150 Fresnel.  I carried 9 of 'em, maybe 12, I forget.  When I left, I investigated all the heads that were on the market and discovered the Dedolight 150.  These were awesome!  Sized to match the little Arris and Peppers, only 150 watt draw and they spotted with the intensity of a 300.  I bought 7 of those, though they were rather pricey and they have served me well for 8 years.

Recently I started investigating LED Fresnels.  Actually, my local rental house offered to let me take home their new Fiilex lights to play with.  I dug those, they were pretty cool.  You could dim them without color shift, you could dial the color anywhere from 2700k to 6700k and they were pretty bright.  They didn't, however, cut like a tungsten fresnel.  Using barndoors on them was a joke and forget trying to card the edge of the light.  Also, their build quality was just slightly below my preferences.

So, I started investigating again and landed back at Dedo, who have a number of LED heads (varying in power) that use the same Aspheric optics (their own design) that is used in my 150 tungstens.  I ordered one (DLED 4.1) and waited anxiously for it to arrive.



These guys are right spendy at about 1600 for the head and power supply, but being able to dial in the color is a godsend.  It seems like I'm always balancing commercial interiors to about 4200k which means gelling all my lights.  After the light arrived, I spent a day playing with it at the house.  Color and intensity both dial up and down beautifully.  The quality of light is identical to the tungsten heads.  They spot as tight, but they flood even wider.  Barndoor them, card them... they work just like they oughtta!  Did I mention that these things only draw 40 watts?  By then end of the day I ordered two more and we'll be trying them out on a shoot next weekend.  I expect after that, I'll be ordering more.

-CB

Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Just picked up some new LEDs :)
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2015, 06:24:12 pm »

These look great!  I had gotten. I love the Fresnel look.

I had some LED panels before and they also shift color as needed and dim down. They are not this concentrated with a fresnel lens, but they were super for $170.00.

I also got a few pieces of the Rosco LitePads. The HO+ which are strong, but no light temp control. They dim also.

For Fresnel I still use a couple different strobes, an 8" and 12" Norman off 2K packs.
The boom for the 12" is a beast as these things are super heavy, and I have the snoot, barn doors, and such for it. It is a great light.
Good to see LED getting creative in usage.

The Rosco's I would look for second hand if you ever need them. They have limited use, but very hand for stills, but really shine for video.  But its amazing to me how companies price their products like this. The Rosco has a dail down manual dimmer for $115+. I was able to order a electronic multi step dimmer with other lighting functions for $6, and it is a perfect shape and size unlike the bulk Rosco uses. The manual version also available for $4.

This is the price differences we are dealing with from companies aiming for making a killing. Those rectangular panels I mentioned above, LitePanel sells something like it for about $1200, at least when first released. Then they dropped a bit.  But for about $300-400 you can get a top performing model that is as dependable as the old trenched brand name stuff.
Sometimes things like this are just insanely priced.  Its supposed to have been for a industry that was thriving...but now that share is so small, the majority is not looking to spend 1600 on a LED lighthead.  Maybe its because I use these types of lights as secondary, and not my go to gear. Maybe 4800 on main 3 lights being hot is the way to go for stills these days?
Also partly since I know too much about the MFG of LED lighting.  Either way, nice share.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 11:37:38 pm by Phil Indeblanc »
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peter_c

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Re: Just picked up some new LEDs :)
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2015, 03:57:40 pm »

Let us know how they work, Chris.  Earlier this year I almost bought the larger Fiilex Q500 but wasn't entirely convinced  the 5" fresnel would work for me.  My work is in the studio and I've been shooting with flash adapted 1, 2, and 5k Desisti fresnels from pre-digital days but I don't need the power I once did. Starting to work with motion, I've added a number of Kinos but would like a hard source.  Another possibility I've looked at is the Zylight.
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Chris Barrett

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Re: Just picked up some new LEDs :)
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2015, 05:00:03 pm »

Peter, my local rental house turned me on to the Fiilex and let me take home their P360 kit over Thanksgiving.  These came with fresnels, but they just don't cut anything like a real fresnel does.  Trying to cut them with a flag, was like cutting a softbox.

The Dedo's totally do the trick and can replace my tungsten Fresnels.

I also recently picked up a used Profoto Multispot Fresnel for a little more punch.  I'm anxious to try that out but Profoto is taking their sweet time refreshing it.

More to come,
CB

JoeKitchen

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Re: Just picked up some new LEDs :)
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2015, 07:51:25 am »

Chris, at 3200K what is the color and hue like? 

Is it a nice warm color like a tungsten bulb, or is it warm but a little off color and somewhat unpleasing? 

I have found that a lot of the newer LED and HMI bulbs used in new construction today are around 3000K but have a magenta hue that does not feel nice.  Your thoughts? 
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Phil Indeblanc

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razrblck

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Re: Just picked up some new LEDs :)
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2015, 02:56:11 pm »

^ Man, that's a cheap looking light!
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Just picked up some new LEDs :)
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2015, 03:30:05 pm »

This look any better?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1000W-Fresnel-Tungsten-Light-Spotlight-free-bulb-studio-vedio-photo-lighting/221948458729?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D34492%26meid%3D8e2ac3e8771a4986ad9ace841098825a%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D400834045417


or this

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nanguang-CN-30F-LED-Studio-Light-LED-Fresnel-Spotlight-High-CRI-Ra-95-for-Video-/321943180412?hash=item4af54f147c:g:xz4AAOSwEetV7-lV


Some are even noted as designed in Germany or Japan to make you feel better.

I don't know what makes them look ugly? But they are Arri design copies, and they are pretty standard looking.

Not that the Dedo's are the same, and they can very well be "better"....

Here is the difference I often see,
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RPS-Studio-CooLED-1500-LED-Light-with-Fresnel-Lens-/191529721634?hash=item2c980f9f22:g:b60AAOSwBahU-gNU

Why they cost more is simply dictated by expected industry/marketing and very little or nothing to do with mfg costs.

Same lights, internationally $195, marketed to the photo industry here with a name on it, $600!
Thats over 50% ADDITION if you don't mind 500 less watts, thats 70%! 
« Last Edit: December 14, 2015, 05:55:41 pm by Phil Indeblanc »
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razrblck

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Re: Just picked up some new LEDs :)
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2015, 03:08:41 am »

Well, the main differences lie inside these beasts: LEDs, electronics and lens quality.

Looking at the spectral data for Dedo and Fiilex there's a difference, as the Dedo uses higher quality LEDs that produce better colors under any light temperature. We are talking small percentages difference at this level, but it could be enough to show a slight magenta hue around 3000K as lower quality LEDs tend to produce more blue light than higher rated ones.

As for those Arri copies, I'm not sure how well they are sourcing their parts. And not just the LED chips themselves, but also the rest of the electronics. LEDs can be very good and last a long time even if they come from not so reputable manufacturers, but if the internal power supply isn't up to the task or is driving the lights way over spec you will burn those puppies very quickly.

Then we come down to optics (both quality and design) and general contruction. Some are blatant copies so at least they should've gotten some things right, but if the materials used are different, then also the thermal characteristics are going to differ. One can half ass something at a cheap price, but for pieces of kit that cost so much and produce a lot of heat, half assing the cooling is going to cost you way more than buying quality lights in the first place.

There is definitely a price premium on some products which can be outrageous (like the Fiilex costing three times a Dedo and being both very close in quality), but not all the lights are created equal and some are just a waste of money (like those cheap eBay video rigs that will snap and break with normal use but that still cost a few hundred dollars).
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Just picked up some new LEDs :)
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2015, 09:55:25 am »

Chris, at 3200K what is the color and hue like? 

Is it a nice warm color like a tungsten bulb, or is it warm but a little off color and somewhat unpleasing? 

I have found that a lot of the newer LED and HMI bulbs used in new construction today are around 3000K but have a magenta hue that does not feel nice.  Your thoughts?

Hi Joe,

Isn't that the general issue with LEDs, that they do not produce a very uniform spectrum of light, and therefore will generally cause some color issues in the overlap between the pass-bands, and maybe in the near UV part (around 470nm) of their output.

I think it would require significant specific additional filtering to even things out, especially if we want to get closer to a type of color emission that is a good balancing match for a camera, instead of accentuating the deficiency of RGB sensors to match human color sensitivity (Luther Ives condition). The latter by itself can already lead to all sorts of metamerism and Color Constancy issues.

Cheers,
Bart
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Just picked up some new LEDs :)
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2015, 11:19:31 am »

Yes, Bart, that is part of the problem with LEDs.  However I feel there have been a good deal of advancements recently in the high end of lights, but I have no practical knowledge since these lights are outside of my budget right now. 

So I was just wondering if there did have a magenta hue at 3200K, like most LEDs used in place of traditional building lighting. 

I am fixated on this because recently I shot a project that have LED lighting that was natively at 2400K with a wicked magenta hue.  It was a pain to edit, especially with indirect sunlight flooding in at 7800K and blue. 
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Just picked up some new LEDs :)
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2015, 12:47:39 pm »

One of the most expesive part in LED lighting is the binning, when they sort the light tempretures from each diode.
But even the cheap ones have CRI of 90+ with stable temps. There is cheap and then there is cheap. If you just look for price, chances are you''l get something crappy. But if you research the product you can make an informed purchase.

I have the Rosco LitePads and they are not cheap. They just haven't been copied yet. When they do, it should be just as nice as the originals.

Sure if you're looking for a new set of lights and are new in the business, you'll want that extra boost in confidence and the idea that you're doing "the right thing"..since you budgeted some figure for lighting. I don't see how 3 Fresnels would be useful, specially with such a small diameter. I love the look of the 12" I have and would opt for that over the 8" if it werent so darn heavy and big. Besides, I have yet to start using the LitePanles in any real shoot, as the mounting is not so straight forward, and so I have done some tests, but not so experienced with continuos lights in still shooting.
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Chris Barrett

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Re: Just picked up some new LEDs :)
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2015, 04:17:51 pm »

Well, here's a quick setup I did at home the day I got the first Dedo.  The image on the left is ambient window light, which white balanced to 5800k.  I dialed the Dedo to 58 and lit the right side of the mantle.  Check the color picker results...

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Just picked up some new LEDs :)
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2015, 05:48:57 pm »

Chris,

This is impressive indeed!

Cheers,
Bernard

Craig Lamson

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Re: Just picked up some new LEDs :)
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2015, 07:44:00 pm »

Yes, Bart, that is part of the problem with LEDs.  However I feel there have been a good deal of advancements recently in the high end of lights, but I have no practical knowledge since these lights are outside of my budget right now. 

So I was just wondering if there did have a magenta hue at 3200K, like most LEDs used in place of traditional building lighting. 

I am fixated on this because recently I shot a project that have LED lighting that was natively at 2400K with a wicked magenta hue.  It was a pain to edit, especially with indirect sunlight flooding in at 7800K and blue.

The rv guys have all moved over to cheap LED lighting and the color is impossible to correct.  The shooters who are using tungsten and trying to balance the practicals are going nuts.  Since I use strobe I just dial the practicals out, and then, if the image warrants it, I'll layer in some reflected highlights from the led practicals.

The lights they use well and truly suck.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 11:08:11 pm by Craig Lamson »
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alan_b

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Re: Just picked up some new LEDs :)
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2015, 10:27:16 pm »

Yeah, I'm running in to this a lot lately in residential work.  On one hand I was thinking I need less lighting with CMOS sensors, but then need more lighting again to make up for the crappy LED lighting. ::)

Blending a frame w/ practicals in luminosity or lighten mode has been working pretty well.

I am fixated on this because recently I shot a project that have LED lighting that was natively at 2400K with a wicked magenta hue.  It was a pain to edit, especially with indirect sunlight flooding in at 7800K and blue.
The rv guys have all moved over to cheap LED lighting and the color is impossible to correct.  The shooters who are using tungsten and trying to balance the practicals are going nuts.  Since I use strobe I just dial the practicals out, and then, if the image warrants it, I'll layer in some reflected highlights from the led practicals.

They lights they use well and truly suck.
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David Eichler

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Re: Just picked up some new LEDs :)
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2015, 04:11:07 am »

The rv guys have all moved over to cheap LED lighting and the color is impossible to correct.  The shooters who are using tungsten and trying to balance the practicals are going nuts.  Since I use strobe I just dial the practicals out, and then, if the image warrants it, I'll layer in some reflected highlights from the led practicals.

The lights they use well and truly suck.

Do a separate exposure for them, color correct and blend that into the primary exposure?

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JoeKitchen

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Re: Just picked up some new LEDs :)
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2015, 07:31:12 am »

Do a separate exposure for them, color correct and blend that into the primary exposure?
That works so long as the the dominating light are not the LEDs, like in residential kitchens where the LEDs are more likely the track lighting under the cabinets. 

But in large commercial spaces where the LEDs are the primary light source, it would be impossible to turn them off and recreate that light feel.  So you just need to deal with it in post, which is not great. 

Chris, thanks for the samples.  The light looks very nice and clean. 
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Craig Lamson

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Re: Just picked up some new LEDs :)
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2015, 09:59:19 am »

Do a separate exposure for them, color correct and blend that into the primary exposure?

That's what I do on occasion, when it makes sense to the scene.  The problem is that they just don't really color balance well.
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alatreille

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Re: Just picked up some new LEDs :)
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2015, 11:03:46 am »

Working on an image today that is a mix of tungsten, LED and flourescent...inside and outside lighting.

arrrrggghhh
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