Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6   Go Down

Author Topic: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions  (Read 33302 times)

Doug Peterson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4210
    • http://www.doug-peterson.com
Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2015, 08:59:02 am »

Then the SK60XL with its 110mm image circle is a great alternative one step up (right there at 35mm FoV 135-equivalent, a key FoV with very beautiful perspective which work in a wide range of movements if you ask me), but it has too much color fidelity issues in the outer range on an IQ180, I haven't seen how the outer range behaves on the 60MP backs, hopefully much better. With Schneider doing its last production run as we speak there's no Rodenstock lens to replace it.

Here is a test showing it's behavior with 50, 60, and 80mp digital backs:
https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/dt-blog/phase-one-iq250-tech-camera-testing

Another seemingly minor, but quite consequential note: Rodenstock tends to cite the useable/sharp image circle while Schneider tends to cite the area of illumination. In other words in the real world you can add a mm or two to Rodenstocks numbers and subtract several mm from the Schneider numbers.

torger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3267
Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2015, 09:45:17 am »

In other words in the real world you can add a mm or two to Rodenstocks numbers and subtract several mm from the Schneider numbers.

Good point! For landscape the shifted top can be things like sky with clouds etc so there it's manageable if it's fuzzy, while of course if you make a architectural shot you may need critical sharpness corner to corner.

For my personal shooting style I'm okay if the outer range is a bit fuzzy, as long as the good range manages the 1/3 of short edge shift range. My SK60XL turned out to be decentered when I did a recent test, so I'm sending it in for fixing. When fixed I'm sure it does 90mm IC with high quality, and then the range up to 110-115 can be seen as an outer extended range, kind of use-it-at-your-own-risk. I rather have a fuzzy outer range like this, than have a hard-cut sharp-to-the-edge smaller image circle, especially since there's often a penumbra-risk when getting close to a hard edge.
Logged

Paul2660

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4066
    • Photos of Arkansas
Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2015, 09:53:22 am »

Since Rodenstock puts the IC indicator in the lens, i.e. at the edge of the IC, doesn't that preclude using the lens past the IC?  i.e in the case of the 32 and 40mm HR-W the IC being 90mm.  Once you it the edge of the IC, you hit the hard vignette of the indicator which ruins anything beyond that point, in fact it can do some damage before by the creating of a white band in front of the dark.  Only effect's solid shots, blue sky, dark wall etc.  But the C1 LCC will not remove it.  It is seemingly more pronounced on the 70mm IC lenses, 28HR etc.  Where as Schneider, with no IC indicator allows the photographer go past the edge of the IC, and make the decision on image quality themselves.  Thus the reason the 60XL can go to much bigger shifting, it's not just the larger IC of the lens.

When I owned my 28HR, it could easily have made 10mm of shift in many instanced, but by past 5mm, the upper and lower corners were ruined by the dark vignette of the IC indicator.  I guess you can go beyond the limit of the indicator i.e 90mm on a 32mm or 40mm if you are willing to crop massively into your shot, but then you may as well used the 60XL? 

The 40 HR-W could easily make 20mm with very little image quality fall off, which is well beyond the 90mm IC, but you hit the wall so to speak at 16mm on a full frame back, wall being the IC indicator.  The cropped sensor backs can get maybe 18 before you hit it. 

If you add rise to the this, then the IC indicator really kills the shot, example a 40 HR-W shifted to 15mm with say 10mm of rise.  The entire upper left corner on the 15mm L or R shift with rise is pretty much ruined by a massive amount of black due to the IC indicator.  In my test, this was all sky, net, it really didn't matter how good the image quality was, it's sky.  But the black vignette just kills the shot and makes 9 part movements with the 40 HR-W pretty much worthless, even 5mm of rise shows this. 

Just basing this on my experience with these lenses on IQ160, IQ150 and IQ260. 

Net Rodenstock may claim you can go beyond the 90mm of the IC, but the fact that you hit such a hard wall pretty much makes such movement a moot point to me.

I have attached an example from C1, 8mm rise, 15mm L shift IQ260.  You can clearly see the effect of the IC indicator, and if you look closely you can also see the destruction the indicator has on the part of the file right before the hard edge of the indicator. 


Paul C
Logged
Paul Caldwell
Little Rock, Arkansas U.S.
www.photosofarkansas.com

Doug Peterson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4210
    • http://www.doug-peterson.com
Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2015, 11:19:05 am »

Since Rodenstock puts the IC indicator in the lens, i.e. at the edge of the IC, doesn't that preclude using the lens past the IC?  i.e in the case of the 32 and 40mm HR-W the IC being 90mm.  Once you it the edge of the IC, you hit the hard vignette of the indicator which ruins anything beyond that point, in fact it can do some damage before by the creating of a white band in front of the dark.  Only effect's solid shots, blue sky, dark wall etc.  But the C1 LCC will not remove it.  It is seemingly more pronounced on the 70mm IC lenses, 28HR etc.  Where as Schneider, with no IC indicator allows the photographer go past the edge of the IC, and make the decision on image quality themselves.  Thus the reason the 60XL can go to much bigger shifting, it's not just the larger IC of the lens.

When I owned my 28HR, it could easily have made 10mm of shift in many instanced, but by past 5mm, the upper and lower corners were ruined by the dark vignette of the IC indicator.  I guess you can go beyond the limit of the indicator i.e 90mm on a 32mm or 40mm if you are willing to crop massively into your shot, but then you may as well used the 60XL? 

The 40 HR-W could easily make 20mm with very little image quality fall off, which is well beyond the 90mm IC, but you hit the wall so to speak at 16mm on a full frame back, wall being the IC indicator.  The cropped sensor backs can get maybe 18 before you hit it. 

If you add rise to the this, then the IC indicator really kills the shot, example a 40 HR-W shifted to 15mm with say 10mm of rise.  The entire upper left corner on the 15mm L or R shift with rise is pretty much ruined by a massive amount of black due to the IC indicator.  In my test, this was all sky, net, it really didn't matter how good the image quality was, it's sky.  But the black vignette just kills the shot and makes 9 part movements with the 40 HR-W pretty much worthless, even 5mm of rise shows this. 

Just basing this on my experience with these lenses on IQ160, IQ150 and IQ260. 

Net Rodenstock may claim you can go beyond the 90mm of the IC, but the fact that you hit such a hard wall pretty much makes such movement a moot point to me.

I have attached an example from C1, 8mm rise, 15mm L shift IQ260.  You can clearly see the effect of the IC indicator, and if you look closely you can also see the destruction the indicator has on the part of the file right before the hard edge of the indicator. 


Paul C

Correct. You can't go much beyond the image circle stated by Rodenstock before you hit the hard edge, and including the hard edge is not usually recommended (it could, for instance, be okay if its occluding a cloudless blue sky which you can fix in post).

According to our visualizer the LCC you posted is many mm outside the image circle. At a rise of 8mm that lens should only support 8mm of shift, not 15mm.
https://digitaltransitions.com/page/tech-camera-visualizers

My comment that you can go a mm or two past the stated image circle in many/most Rodenstock lenses was meant to be taken quite literally. As in, you can go one or two mm past the stated image circle prior to seeing a hard edged disk.

With Schneider the useful image circle is often 5-10mm inside the image circle that they state.

Paul2660

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4066
    • Photos of Arkansas
Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #44 on: December 08, 2015, 11:42:16 am »

Agree, I was outside of the "recommended" shift for that amount of rise, however for only 8mm of shift to get 8mm of rise, a photographer has to ask, is it worth it?  8mm of shift is just not enough, neither for a short pano or trying to create a 9 x 9 shifted very high resolution image, there is just not enough "new" image captured to justify it.  At least to me. 

My main point is that if Rodenstock was to allow the same lens, without the IC indicator, (totally worthless to me) then you could possibly get to what I showed.  Again it's sky in this situation, and you don't need as much perfect resolution.  But you begin to suffer with anything past 15mm of shift with the 40HR-W as the IC indicator creates a lighter, but just as damaging shadow before it creates the hard vignette.  As you pointed out, if that part of the file is not a pure solid, the shadow part can possibly be worked in C1, but where the hard vignette begins, this is not true as even C1 can't correct for solid black.

At least for those on a P45+ or Credo 40 etc, older leaf back, the Schneider gave you a full range of shift without the hard vignette.  On the higher MP backs the Schneider wides just are too problematic unless just shot for center frames. 


Paul C
Logged
Paul Caldwell
Little Rock, Arkansas U.S.
www.photosofarkansas.com

torger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3267
Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #45 on: December 08, 2015, 01:31:31 pm »

Removed a previous message with some bad maths :-), Doug's visualizer is a much better tool than my lousy calculations:
https://digitaltransitions.com/page/tech-camera-visualizers

Anyway, there you see that it's not so fun having 645 full-frame in a 70mm image circle, you don't get much movement, it becomes mostly center frame lenses (which is fine for some applications). I think the 44x33mm is acceptable for wides (but tight), with 48x36/49x37 it's too tight. I regularly do 10mm sometimes up to 15mm on my SK35 and that wouldn't fit.

The fullframe 645 on 90mm IC is okay, more relative range than 44x33 on 70mm IC, but I think 48x36/49x37 on 90mm is the ultimate tradeoff, and indeed many of the 90mm IC lenses were designed when 49x37mm was the high end format.

There's color (crosstalk), noise (LCC-corrected vignetting) and sharpness falloff to consider too though, so the range of usable image circle vary depending on sensor+lens combination and your personal acceptance of these issues. I think I'm more concerned with color and less with sharpness compared to many others.

Building a modern tech camera one would really want to use the CMOS backs to get live view, but you still have to do some significant tradeoffs on the wide end. So the "best" I still think is IQx60 with Digaron-W lenses, but you should be glad to not see the amount of sensor artifact correction that's required by Capture One's LCC algorithm to make the shifted wides look good... there's an obvious disconnect between sensor capabilities and requirements put on them by the tech lenses. Schneider sort of disqualified themselves by just being too incompatible with the most popular backs (the SK28XL release is a mystery), and while software could patch up most incompatibility with the Rodenstocks, there's now some serious struggle with the CMOS, not just crosstalk there's some bad low frequency rippling too. I hope the next CMOS generation will be designed with some decent angular response so we can get back on track. If not, Rodenstock should design some new wides, because I don't think CCD will survive in new products for many more years, the CMOS advantages are just too many.
Logged

NickT

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 269
Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #46 on: December 08, 2015, 01:51:56 pm »


Hasselblad has a lot of catching up to do but I don't think they are financially well placed to do so. That leaves them in a dangerous position, IMO.


Just FYI This statement is completely inaccurate. Exciting times!
Logged

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6642
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #47 on: December 09, 2015, 12:29:17 am »

Just FYI This statement is completely inaccurate. Exciting times!

Hasselblad has a good product, certainly competitive and superior in some ways but not all to P1, and at a lower price point.

Edmund
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #48 on: December 09, 2015, 01:41:21 am »

Hi,

If you happen to have any good news on Hasselblad's financial state, please share!

Regarding catching up, I would say that Hasselblad has a lot of very good lenses. What they don't have are 80 MP backs.

We have a lot of high quality lenses coming Sigma and Zeiss. Otuses 28, 55 and 85. The 135/2.0 APO, the Sigma Arts. Canon and Nikon also make some great lenses. Zeiss even offers AF lenses for Sony FA-mount.

With Canon and Sony offering 42-50 MP and probably joined by Nikon soon enough, competition is getting a bit stiffer.

That said, I would guess that the 50 MP Sony MF sensors have a size advantage over the 24x36 sensors, albeit they probably share much of the technology.

That advantage in size would convert to something like 6-7 DxO-mark points would anyone be interested, that may correspond to say 4-5 years of sensor development.

Best sensor 2009: Nikon D3x at 88
Best sensor 2016: Sony A7rII at at 98

10 points in 7 years -> 1.4 points/year

Best regards
Erik

Just FYI This statement is completely inaccurate. Exciting times!
« Last Edit: December 09, 2015, 02:18:11 am by ErikKaffehr »
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

johnnycash

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22
Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #49 on: December 09, 2015, 02:11:37 am »

If you happen to have any good news on Hasselblad's financial state, please share!

Hasselblad's financial health isn't as bad as people say. Looks like they will be profitable in the 2015 (let's wait for that, it'll be soon available) plus they have sold a minority stake to DJI which means a very dynamic new company is helping them run the operations, strategically, by selling the stake they have secured another sales funnel for aerial cameras and most importantly, Hasselblad got the cash injection they needed.

Maybe they are pivoting their business model and will try to get to or even create a new market. Maybe their new pricing strategy will work and more people will get into their ecosystem. I believe their pricing strategy is nothing but testing the market in real time and it is working out for them.
Once you are hooked as a user, it's certain you'll spend more and every user acquired by Hasselblad means no user for PhaseOne.

Now the numbers:
http://www.proff.dk/firma/hasselblad-as/..


To be fair, let's include PhaseOne financials for comparison.
http://www.proff.dk/firma/phase-one-as/..
Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #50 on: December 09, 2015, 02:21:44 am »

Thanks for the Hasselblad financial info. Much improvement over 2013, it seems.

Best regards
Erik

Hasselblad's financial health isn't as bad as people say. Looks like they will be profitable in the 2015 (let's wait for that, it'll be soon available) plus they have sold a minority stake to DJI which means a very dynamic new company is helping them run the operations, strategically, by selling the stake they have secured another sales funnel for aerial cameras and most importantly, Hasselblad got the cash injection they needed.

Maybe they are pivoting their business model and will try to get to or even create a new market. Maybe their new pricing strategy will work and more people will get into their ecosystem. I believe their pricing strategy is nothing but testing the market in real time and it is working out for them.
Once you are hooked as a user, it's certain you'll spend more and every user acquired by Hasselblad means no user for PhaseOne.

Now the numbers:
http://www.proff.dk/firma/hasselblad-as/..


To be fair, let's include PhaseOne financials for comparison.
http://www.proff.dk/firma/phase-one-as/..

Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

torger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3267
Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #51 on: December 09, 2015, 04:36:01 am »

One hot budget alternative to MFDB tech cam is a Sony A7r-II with adapters or Sony A7r-II with Cambo Actus or F-Universalis. It would be interesting to put together "example" systems with those with the intention to compete as well as possible with the MFDB alternative in terms of quality and flexibility.

One would need a ~24, ~35, ~50 and one or two longer lenses with shift/tilt capability and very high optical quality.

For the 24 I guess it's the TS-E 24 II that's the best alternative, although I guess you might even run a Hassy HCD 24mm via some adapter? Cambo and Arca-Swiss has adapters for the Canon lens coming (with aperture control). I don't really know about the 35 and 50 and longer. I don't think the old Canon TS-E (45 and 90) has the quality. You can use Digaron lenses too of course, Digaron-S probably best, which may be a nice alternative for the longer lenses but probably flange distance and cast issues with the shorter focal lengths. Or can you even run a Digaron-S 23mm on the A7r? I would guess that it's sharper than Canon's TS-E 24 II which has about the same image circle.

As the Actus and F-Universalis lets you pick lenses from all sorts of systems you could come up with some pretty creative mix of lenses... Is it possible today to make a 42 MP A7r-II-based system as pixel-peep sharp as yesterday's 39MP P45+ based tech cam system, and with the same tilt-shift flexibility over a wide range of focal lengths? That would be pretty amazing, although I would guess that it's actually considerably cheaper to buy that yesterday's tech cam system on the second hand market than putting together a new tech cam system with the A7r-II....

When there's live view (no ground glass) I don't think sensor size is that important, it's the result that matters. The smaller size can make camera body parallelism and lens mounting precision become a larger problem, but I don't know if 36x24 vs 44x33 is any meaningful difference in that regard.
Logged

torger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3267
Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #52 on: December 09, 2015, 04:49:44 am »

I think Hasselblad sees that there's possibility to sell in much larger volumes than what they traditionally expected. Pro market might be shrinking here and there, but that's compensated by an increased number of enthusiasts, and with lower prices and more attractive and all-around feature set (=CMOS) you get more interest from the enthusiasts. The CFV-50c seems to be a huge hit among enthusiasts, and the $10k rather than $15k price makes a real difference in that segment.

A problem now seems to be that the factory capacity is designed for the traditional low sales high price model, so they can't deliver at the same pace as the demand is. The CFV-50c seems constantly back-ordered.

This December price offer is temporary, but I think that in the coming years there will be lower cost to get MFD gear, and if they play their cards right it will become easier to buy Hassy gear from less specialized dealers. Put in basket in the web shops. With CMOS tech the camera can work like any other camera and then you don't really need a dealer that educates you how to make the best use of a camera crippled by the CCD limitations, that is you can make more anonymous sales in larger volumes. Making the system more commonplace I think is the right way to battle the competition from the smaller systems. However, the easy way out is to go the opposite direction of course, to make it a luxury product only. There's probably plenty room for expansion in the Asian markets for that.

The recent low prices in Hassy's products makes me hope for that their idea for the future is to make the system more accessible rather than less...
Logged

Theodoros

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2454
Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #53 on: December 09, 2015, 01:03:09 pm »

......... This December price offer is temporary, .........

No it's not... The price reduction started four months ago and it improves gradually by the time... In fact it will improve further as they clearly move the 50c as to replace the 40 for their entry level product in the line.... They clearly don't want to sell the CDD sensors at all and they keep them in their catalog only for "prestige" purposes... Clearly there are new (Cmos) larger sensors coming soon (that's why the new pricing policy) and they are making space for them....

Never the less, the S/H market pricing seems to have been affected considerably as if one can buy a CFV-50 (which is also priced very attractively) or a 50c new for those prices (and even slightly cheaper soon), then why buy a S/H CCD sensor back at all? ...after all, the Sony sensor backs (out of all makers) are claimed to be (by most) superior for Image Quality than the FF sensor backs and at that price and they seem to have the vast percentage of current sales. The only drawback that is claimed for the Sony sensor backs is the sensor's dimensions, but one can add a 24-25mm lens as to overcome the sensor size disadvantage...
Logged

landscapephoto

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 623
Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #54 on: December 09, 2015, 01:53:59 pm »

The only drawback that is claimed for the Sony sensor backs is the sensor's dimensions, but one can add a 24-25mm lens as to overcome the sensor size disadvantage...

One can use a HCD24 lens on the 50 mpix CCD back.
Logged

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6642
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #55 on: December 09, 2015, 03:47:19 pm »

Contributors here and on GetDPI have been pleading for this for years. Good to see they're at least trying this new business model. I won't be holding my breath in anticipation of P1 following in their footsteps.

Dealers who sell P1 will obviously prefer to do a high margin expensive sale to a cheap low margin sale. As a result, a product that gets sold "cheaper"  through those dealers ends up being both too expensive and not getting any sales. So maybe hassy should just give up on the dealers and go straight for the traditional pro sales houses like B&H.

Edmund
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

Theodoros

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2454
Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #56 on: December 09, 2015, 03:52:13 pm »

Dealers who sell P1 will obviously prefer to do a high margin expensive sale to a cheap low margin sale. As a result, a product that gets sold "cheaper"  through those dealers ends up being both too expensive and not getting any sales. So maybe hassy should just give up on the dealers and go straight for the traditional pro sales houses like B&H.

Edmund

The problem is finding the customer that is prepared to spend three times as much, yet buying a product that is performing and specified much the same...
Logged

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #57 on: December 09, 2015, 03:59:50 pm »

I cannot help wonder how many IQ250 Phaseone still manages to sell with this price difference.

The only measurable advantage it probably still has pretty much boils down to C1 pro support. Is that worth 20,000 US$ that buys you a whole lens line up?

Cheers,
Bernard

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6642
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #58 on: December 09, 2015, 04:54:26 pm »

I cannot help wonder how many IQ250 Phaseone still manages to sell with this price difference.

The only measurable advantage it probably still has pretty much boils down to C1 pro support. Is that worth 20,000 US$ that buys you a whole lens line up?

Cheers,
Bernard

If you are someone of low digital competence, employed at a well-funded cultural institution, then having someone on call to help you get your job done is worth a lot of the money which others are paying ...
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

AlterEgo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1995
Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #59 on: December 09, 2015, 05:07:05 pm »

So maybe hassy should just give up on the dealers and go straight for the traditional pro sales houses like B&H.
B&H sells H
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6   Go Up