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Author Topic: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions  (Read 33489 times)

johnnycash

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H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« on: December 06, 2015, 05:38:18 pm »

Hi all,

I'll be grateful for your feedback on the following:

I'm a 5DSR + Otus Distagon user. I'm very demanding and concerned about image quality. My main photography field is classical landscape and cityscapes. Sometimes portraits, however I don't own any strobes yet. Sometimes I print big but I'm not a commercial photographer, just a hobbyist.

The latest MF (IQ 250 last year and XF+new IQ backs) or Hasselblads have been our of reach for me until now, the current promotion for H5D-50c priced at $14,500USD is way too tempting. I have scheduled a hands-on demo the next week so I guess that will tell me almost everything but I want to listen to you, guys more experienced who are shooting MF systems already.

  • How do you feel about the future of Hasselblad?
  • Does buying a H5D-50c mean I will get stuck with a dinosaur soon?

I think I’m aware of the drawbacks of a MF system and I’m willing to sacrifice speed, weight and its shooting envelope for image quality, dynamic & colour range and pixel acuity.
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Joe Towner

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Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2015, 06:48:27 pm »

Before you jump, try the Pentax 645z.  Same chip, half the price.  I love the Hass, but if leaf shutter lenses aren't critical to your work - which it doesn't seem - the Pentax will give you all that detail with a much lower price point.  Will you be replacing your Canon gear or just adding to it?

Hasselblad as a system is fine, there's lots of use out there, it just seems stagnant as MF as a whole hasn't done much and 35mm is advancing pretty quickly.  I don't see them folding as Contax and Rollie did, mostly due to the size of the user base and the rental market.  The -50c wifi back has some great features, in ISO, color and pixel detail.

Don't purchase if you're worried about dinosaur status, folks still shoot Contax and love it, even though they shut down a decade ago.  If you're going to use it, it'll be fine.  If you're gonna drop $14.5k on a camera back and body (you still need a lens), you can get into a used Hass or Phase back or a technical camera setup.  Don't focus on the money, focus on process and output of your work.  I've put enough shots on my Hass I figure it's a $1 a click, and I've broke even at this point.

-Joe
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wding109

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Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2015, 06:49:36 pm »

For landscape and cityscapes, technical cameras such as Alpa, Arca Swiss and Cambo are better fits (did you try tilt/shift ?). In these fields, you don't need to care about the AF and speed too much . Those DSLR-like MF cameras, such as XF, DF, and H5D, are more useful for fashion/wedding photography because of the integrated system with AF and the convenient operations. But of course, if you are more comfortable with the DSLR experience, there is nothing preventing you using them for landscape and cityscapes. I don't know the futures of Hasselblad, but I really like the Classic Hasselblad V systems, especially SWC.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2015, 07:08:20 pm by wding109 »
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uaiomex

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Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2015, 06:56:08 pm »

I have none of these gear but I have an opinion (everybody does  :). The Canon-Otus is latest state of the art gear close to its limits but not quite yet. The Hass combo must have an edge in IQ over the the Canon combo, it just ought to. But the big price difference makes it for me not worth it. On the other hand, I'm sure soon the smallest of MF sensors will be a thing of the past. Not only MF has to come down in price in order to survive but the sensors have to be true Ff 645 in size or at least far away from 35FF dimensions.
Eduardo
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eronald

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Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2015, 07:51:29 pm »

I have none of these gear but I have an opinion (everybody does  :). The Canon-Otus is latest state of the art gear close to its limits but not quite yet. The Hass combo must have an edge in IQ over the the Canon combo, it just ought to. But the big price difference makes it for me not worth it. On the other hand, I'm sure soon the smallest of MF sensors will be a thing of the past. Not only MF has to come down in price in order to survive but the sensors have to be true Ff 645 in size or at least far away from 35FF dimensions.
Eduardo

One advantage of the Hassy is its tilt shift adapter.

The camera will likely be complemented by one with a slightly larger chip, but will stay on as an entry model: photographers seem to like it.

Edmund
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Ken R

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Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2015, 08:48:07 pm »

Hi all,

I'll be grateful for your feedback on the following:

I'm a 5DSR + Otus Distagon user. I'm very demanding and concerned about image quality. My main photography field is classical landscape and cityscapes. Sometimes portraits, however I don't own any strobes yet. Sometimes I print big but I'm not a commercial photographer, just a hobbyist.

The latest MF (IQ 250 last year and XF+new IQ backs) or Hasselblads have been our of reach for me until now, the current promotion for H5D-50c priced at $14,500USD is way too tempting. I have scheduled a hands-on demo the next week so I guess that will tell me almost everything but I want to listen to you, guys more experienced who are shooting MF systems already.

  • How do you feel about the future of Hasselblad?
  • Does buying a H5D-50c mean I will get stuck with a dinosaur soon?

I think I’m aware of the drawbacks of a MF system and I’m willing to sacrifice speed, weight and its shooting envelope for image quality, dynamic & colour range and pixel acuity.

If money is an issue I would just stick with the Canon or if you are just looking for a much better sensor in regards to dynamic range check out a Nikon D810 or even a Sony A7RII (a tad behind the D810 in ultimate low iso image quality but better in high iso). The sensor in the 645Z and the Hasselblad 50c is better (MUCH better than the one in the Canon but only slightly better than the one in the D810) but lens selection is much more limited specially in the wide angle end, never mind the cost (in size/weight and $). The Pentax 28-45 is a really good lens but it is a beast and costs 5 large.

The biggest issue with the Canon is the lack of high dynamic range. The Sony CMOS sensors are just much better in that regard. If that is not an issue you are not going to find a significant gain in resolution with other systems unless you spend a LOT more money (think a tech camera system) and even then the difference is not going to be huge and while you do gain a LOT of capability with tilt and shifts possible you loose speed and convenience.

I find the Medium Format SLRs a bit clunky for landscapes. I own one, a Hasselblad H1 (love it for studio and portraits) and a Phase IQ160 back and I MUCH prefer to use the back with my tech camera whenever I am photographing landscapes. The setup is lighter, more compact and much more versatile.

With great live view the Credo50/IQ150/250/350 are amazing with a tech camera even though wide angle lens performance needs a bit of help from the software (color, not sharpness!, look up other threads on this or call a dealer).   
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Doug Peterson

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Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2015, 08:52:25 pm »

Bias alert: I work at DT. We are Phase One's largest dealer, but choose not to sell Hasselblad, so must be considered biased.

Have you looked into tech cameras?
https://digitaltransitions.com/page/tech-camera-systems-main

For what you describe as your main use they seem ideal.

SrMi

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Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2015, 08:53:34 pm »

When selecting a system you should consider foremost available lenses (quality and variety). I am happy with H5D50c and with the flexibility of available Hasselblad lenses/accessories (for landscape, macro, ..).  Most of time I work with H5D, Nikon 810 and Leica M. I like most images from Hasselblad, then Leica, then Nikon. But I use Nikon the most :-).

I am also happy that Hasselblad offers body upgrades as technology advances.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2015, 10:27:41 pm »

If more detail is what you are looking for, the only real way is stitching and that will cost very little.

No, it doesn't apply to all situations but is too good to be ignored.

Cheers,
Bernard

Doug Peterson

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Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2015, 10:28:53 pm »

If more detail is what you are looking for, the only real way is stitching and that will cost very little.

No, it doesn't apply to all situations but is too good to be ignored.

Of course more pixels of higher quality make stitching less often neccessary and much simpler (e.g. 2-shot stitch rather than 9-shot stitch). :)

AlterEgo

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Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2015, 10:35:28 pm »

If more detail is what you are looking for, the only real way is stitching
but, for example, superresolution (photoacute) is not stitching... plus once ricoh/pentax finally deliver FF dSLR you might count for a multi-shot, using their IBIS, 36-42mp sensor in it... you can mount F-mount Otus on it.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2015, 10:39:45 pm by AlterEgo »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2015, 11:36:09 pm »

but, for example, superresolution (photoacute) is not stitching... plus once ricoh/pentax finally deliver FF dSLR you might count for a multi-shot, using their IBIS, 36-42mp sensor in it... you can mount F-mount Otus on it.

Yes, that is indeed true. But the range of subject you can address with those is much more limited that those adressable with stitching.

As a Betterlight owner, I have first hand experience with the challenges resulting from non simultaneous exposure of RGB channels. ;)

Super-resolution is still a different beast obviously, but it doesn't seem to like subject movement too much either. I do own a photoacute license, but have never been that impressed by the results with DSLR images. It always seemed me that the intent was more to get decent quality from average capturing devices rather than to get great quality from good capturing devices. Have they made progress recently?

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: December 06, 2015, 11:44:04 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2015, 11:41:07 pm »

Of course more pixels of higher quality make stitching less often neccessary and much simpler (e.g. 2-shot stitch rather than 9-shot stitch). :)

Yes, that is true Doug, but the difference isn't going to be 9:2 when comparing a 50mp 5Ds to a 50mp H5D50c, especially when the lens on the DSLR is an Otus that is at least as good as MF glass. 9:8 perhaps?

Cheers,
Bernard

landscapephoto

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Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2015, 01:51:55 am »

I'm a 5DSR + Otus Distagon user. I'm very demanding and concerned about image quality. My main photography field is classical landscape and cityscapes. Sometimes portraits, however I don't own any strobes yet. Sometimes I print big but I'm not a commercial photographer, just a hobbyist.

As far as lenses go, the Otus 55mm will give better results than the HC 80mm on the H5D-50c under f/8 about. This is due to lens design.

As far as lenses go, the HC 50mm II and HCD 28mm will be much better than anything that can be mounted on a 5DSR. So, if you need wide-angles that would be an advantage.
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torger

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Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2015, 03:42:25 am »

Many tend to get a bit too occupied with image quality and forget about compositional flexibility. Having just two or three fixed lenses without tilt and shift would make me insane, even if those lenses are great :)

I think you should at least consider the digital view camera case, Arca-Swiss F-Universalis and Cambo Actus are the cheapest to get new, but since you are a hobbyist and may not require around-the-clock support from a local dealer you may consider looking into ebay/for sale forums and make a great deal. It's a highly active second hand market for lenses, cameras and digital backs.

Considering the H50D-50c and 5Ds, the obvious advantage in terms of sensor is that you get a bit better DR, but Canon is not too bad these days so it's personal if you think the DR improvement is meaningful or not.

On the wide end Canon's TS-E 17 and 24 II impresses a lot, assuming you got a good copy. If you like to make large shifts I doubt Hassy's teleconverter+tilt-shift adapters will match.

If you don't think you will appreciate the movements of a tech camera I still think you should consider having shift capable lenses on the wide end, it's in the wide end the "leaning trees and buildings" are most evident (sure you can perspective correct, but you lose field of view and I think it's a less pleasing shooting process to leave composition to post-processing). The Hassy tilt-shift adapter is elegant, but very costly indeed, and as said I'm not sure it's really up to Canon's 17 and 24 anyway.

High resolving power is still quite new in the 135 format, but the interest from the market is large and we've already seen some new high resolution lenses like the Otus and Sigma Art range, plus Canon has been doing updates. There's a risk that if you go for the Hassy and has a lot of focus on image quality and value for money you will feel "hunted" by the progress in the smaller formats. If you get an interest in tech format for the reason of compositional flexibility (it's basically shooting with a large format view camera, but without having to mess with film) rather than only high resolution I think you can get more "peace".

Concerning the future of Hasselblad, it's anybody's guess. They've had bad economy for many years, but still they manage to survive. I wouldn't be surprised if they're out of business in five years, although I think it's more likely that they will make it, and actually I think the arrival of CMOS can become a success story. Even if they go out of business the camera would not instantly become worthless (or useless), just look at Contax, so I would not worry about the stability of Hasselblad as a company.

If I were you I would probably continue use the Canon for a couple of more years. Not only is high res genre new in 135 formats, but CMOS is new in medium format, so I think we can have some interesting technology progress in both format in the immediate years. Full-frame 645 (54x41mm) CMOS is likely to happen in both Phase One and Hasselblad in the next few years, just as Canon updates of the longer TS-E lenses (45/90). I also think medium format digital will become less expensive, I think the price level seen in the current drive of the Hassys will be permanent in the next years, for two reasons. One is that competition from the smaller formats is toughening (similar image quality for a lot less money), the other is that CMOS is making the MFD cameras more all around and easier to sell to a larger group of people than before, making it possible with lower prices.

I can say one thing for sure, if you are not pleased with the resolving power you get from your current system, a H5D-50c will not make you much happier, the difference is too small. I think you'll need a 80 megapixel sensor and tech cam lenses to make any significant improvement there.

And of course, as some people already have mentioned, if you just want the 44x33mm Sony sensor, which many consider to be the best sensor available today, you should look at the Pentax 645z too.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2015, 04:03:16 am by torger »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2015, 11:30:42 am »

Hi,

I would mostly agree to the postings by Ken R and Anders Torger.

What I would add is that some T&S capability can be added to 135 systems with the Mirex T&S adapter and MF lenses when using DSLRs. On the Sony A7xx the HCam Master TSII can also be used, and that device offer +/- 15 mm shift and 10 degrees of tilt, with any lens - of course depending on the image circle.

Here is a description I have posted: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/56810-hcam-master-tsii-sony-a7rii.html?highlight=HCam+Master+TS

It is very much usable with the Canon 11-24/4 lens, it seems: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/54571-hcam-master-ts-11-24mm.html?highlight=HCam+Master+TS

Personally, I use is with a bunch of Hasselblad lenses, 40/4, 60/3.5, 100/3.5, 120/4 and possibly 180/4. Right now I am testing it with the Canon 16-35/4 L zoom.

Regarding the image quality, I have been shooting with a V-series Hasselblad and a P45+ back. With the Sony A7rII cropped a tiny bit both give the same resolution in megapixels. I have just a few comparable shoots, and I would say the P45+ may have a tiny, barely observable, advantage in some cases. I am pretty sure that advantage would not be visible in prints.

The 50 MP CMOS backs are probably a bit better in DR and image noise compared Nikon D810/Sony A7rII. So they would have something 0.7 EV advantage. like being able to shoot 320 ISO instead of 200 ISO, with the same image quality.




Best regards
Erik

Going

Many tend to get a bit too occupied with image quality and forget about compositional flexibility. Having just two or three fixed lenses without tilt and shift would make me insane, even if those lenses are great :)

I think you should at least consider the digital view camera case, Arca-Swiss F-Universalis and Cambo Actus are the cheapest to get new, but since you are a hobbyist and may not require around-the-clock support from a local dealer you may consider looking into ebay/for sale forums and make a great deal. It's a highly active second hand market for lenses, cameras and digital backs.

Considering the H50D-50c and 5Ds, the obvious advantage in terms of sensor is that you get a bit better DR, but Canon is not too bad these days so it's personal if you think the DR improvement is meaningful or not.

On the wide end Canon's TS-E 17 and 24 II impresses a lot, assuming you got a good copy. If you like to make large shifts I doubt Hassy's teleconverter+tilt-shift adapters will match.

If you don't think you will appreciate the movements of a tech camera I still think you should consider having shift capable lenses on the wide end, it's in the wide end the "leaning trees and buildings" are most evident (sure you can perspective correct, but you lose field of view and I think it's a less pleasing shooting process to leave composition to post-processing). The Hassy tilt-shift adapter is elegant, but very costly indeed, and as said I'm not sure it's really up to Canon's 17 and 24 anyway.

High resolving power is still quite new in the 135 format, but the interest from the market is large and we've already seen some new high resolution lenses like the Otus and Sigma Art range, plus Canon has been doing updates. There's a risk that if you go for the Hassy and has a lot of focus on image quality and value for money you will feel "hunted" by the progress in the smaller formats. If you get an interest in tech format for the reason of compositional flexibility (it's basically shooting with a large format view camera, but without having to mess with film) rather than only high resolution I think you can get more "peace".

Concerning the future of Hasselblad, it's anybody's guess. They've had bad economy for many years, but still they manage to survive. I wouldn't be surprised if they're out of business in five years, although I think it's more likely that they will make it, and actually I think the arrival of CMOS can become a success story. Even if they go out of business the camera would not instantly become worthless (or useless), just look at Contax, so I would not worry about the stability of Hasselblad as a company.

If I were you I would probably continue use the Canon for a couple of more years. Not only is high res genre new in 135 formats, but CMOS is new in medium format, so I think we can have some interesting technology progress in both format in the immediate years. Full-frame 645 (54x41mm) CMOS is likely to happen in both Phase One and Hasselblad in the next few years, just as Canon updates of the longer TS-E lenses (45/90). I also think medium format digital will become less expensive, I think the price level seen in the current drive of the Hassys will be permanent in the next years, for two reasons. One is that competition from the smaller formats is toughening (similar image quality for a lot less money), the other is that CMOS is making the MFD cameras more all around and easier to sell to a larger group of people than before, making it possible with lower prices.

I can say one thing for sure, if you are not pleased with the resolving power you get from your current system, a H5D-50c will not make you much happier, the difference is too small. I think you'll need a 80 megapixel sensor and tech cam lenses to make any significant improvement there.

And of course, as some people already have mentioned, if you just want the 44x33mm Sony sensor, which many consider to be the best sensor available today, you should look at the Pentax 645z too.
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AlterEgo

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Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2015, 12:11:58 pm »

Yes, that is indeed true. But the range of subject you can address with those is much more limited that those adressable with stitching.

As a Betterlight owner, I have first hand experience with the challenges resulting from non simultaneous exposure of RGB channels. ;)

Super-resolution is still a different beast obviously, but it doesn't seem to like subject movement too much either. I do own a photoacute license, but have never been that impressed by the results with DSLR images. It always seemed me that the intent was more to get decent quality from average capturing devices rather than to get great quality from good capturing devices. Have they made progress recently?

Cheers,
Bernard

you are not stating that superresolution makes the output worse than just a single shot from your best camera + lens combo, are you ?
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landscapephoto

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Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2015, 01:18:00 pm »

On the wide end Canon's TS-E 17 and 24 II impresses a lot, assuming you got a good copy. If you like to make large shifts I doubt Hassy's teleconverter+tilt-shift adapters will match.

There is not equivalent to the TS-E 17 capabilities in MF land. As to the 24II, its equivalent for Hasselblad would be the HCD24 and HTS. That combination works very well, even with large shifts.
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alatreille

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Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2015, 03:39:21 pm »

I've shot the 5dsr with Canon 24TSEII, next to the Credo with the SK43 on the RM3di

The Credo still blows the Canon out of the water...it's the glass.

I'm still yet to put the Pentax 645z with the 28-45 next to these.  I'm hoping for a good sunny day the next week or so, and I'll do this as a comparison.

The Pentax is a wonderful camera and I'm finding it complementing the 5dsr very very well when I'm on assignment.  It's for shooting details and really low light images that I want to work hard in post.  The files are really malleable.  Lovely camera to work with.
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torger

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Re: H5D-50c vs Canon 5DSR w/Otus - your opinions
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2015, 03:46:42 pm »

There is not equivalent to the TS-E 17 capabilities in MF land. As to the 24II, its equivalent for Hasselblad would be the HCD24 and HTS. That combination works very well, even with large shifts.

To compare with 135 let's cut the sensor to 32x24mm so we get 4:3 there too, then the diagonal is 40mm. The H5D-50c is 44x33 so we get 55mm, 1.375 difference. The HTS is 1.5 so the 24mm becomes 36, which with a 44x33 sensor it becomes 26.2mm FoV so a little bit narrower, but close enough I guess.

As the HTS is a tele converter it really needs to prove itself and I think pixel-peep comparisons would be nice. There's a TS-E 24 + 5Ds II pixel peep thread here:
http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=106011.0

It would be nice to see how the H5D-50c + 24+HTS compares to that.

The Canon combo makes my tech cam H4D-50 + Schneider Digitar 35mm combo bite the dust for movements larger than about 10mm (~7mm on 135). That doesn't make me want to sell my Linhof as it's more to a camera than wide angle resolving power and shift range, but it does show that 135 development has not stood still.
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