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Author Topic: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say  (Read 9954 times)

Isaac

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Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
« on: December 01, 2015, 04:30:01 PM »

Quote
"It doesn't matter whether or not something actually happened to the writer -- or to the person interpreting the song. On the contrary, it is the music and lyrics that trigger the emotions within us, rather than the other way around. We don't make music -- it makes us.

Making music is like constructing a machine whose function is to dredge up emotions in performer and listener alike. Some people find this idea repulsive, because it seems to relegate the artist to the level of trickster, manipulator, and deceiver -- a kind of self-justifying onanist. They would prefer to see music as an expression of emotion rather than a generator of it, to believe in the artist as someone with something to say."

page 162 How Music Works
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elliot_n

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Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2015, 08:52:43 PM »

That's how it is. With photography too.
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Rob C

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Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2015, 04:46:27 AM »

Nice; we split the atom, our asses, and now the hairs on Dylan's head. It's part of the 'pixels on a the head of a pin' ethos; doesn't mean a thing.

Rob C

stamper

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Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2015, 07:56:33 AM »

Isaac, your epitaph? ;) :)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2015, 09:06:00 AM »

Isaac, your epitaph? ;) :)

Stamper, your best dig ever!  :D

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2015, 09:12:29 AM »

.... It's part of the 'pixels on a the head of a pin' ethos;...

Thanks, Rob!

You finally solved my dilemma. As a non-native English speaker, I always struggle with articles. Which shall I use, definite or indefinite, that is always the question. Now, thanks to your ingenious solution, no more struggle: I will simply use both at the same time!  ;)

Isaac

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Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2015, 11:31:22 AM »

That's how it is. With photography too.

That does seem more plausible than the ego drenched alternative.
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Rob C

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Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2015, 12:54:29 PM »

Thanks, Rob!

You finally solved my dilemma. As a non-native English speaker, I always struggle with articles. Which shall I use, definite or indefinite, that is always the question. Now, thanks to your ingenious solution, no more struggle: I will simply use both at the same time!  ;)


It's my eyes... sorry!

Rob

Isaac

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Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2015, 12:54:52 PM »

Isaac, your epitaph? ;) :)

"To be blunt there are a lot of armchair snipers on the internet who like to snipe and they haven't a clue what they are talking about."
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stamper

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Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2015, 04:44:31 AM »

"To be blunt there are a lot of armchair snipers on the internet who like to snipe and they haven't a clue what they are talking about."

Humour Isaac. Is there any humour in your life, if there is I haven't seen it in any of your posts. Why don't you try and lighten up and try communicating better with you fellow LULA members? :(

Isaac

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Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2015, 11:30:23 AM »

I quoted your own words.

You object when other people snipe, but when you snipe at others it's "humour".
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stamper

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Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2015, 04:36:45 AM »

I quoted your own words.

You object when other people snipe, but when you snipe at others it's "humour".

Which post did you quote from? Did you quote out of context? As stated my post was a humorous one but once again you fail to see the funny side of it. A lot of other members find you difficult to communicate with. You should reflect on that. :(

Isaac

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Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2015, 12:54:08 PM »

When someone has repeatedly told you that your remarks are snide and unwelcome, what should you reflect on?
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Jagatai

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Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2015, 09:49:35 AM »

"It doesn't matter whether or not something actually happened to the writer -- or to the person interpreting the song. On the contrary, it is the music and lyrics that trigger the emotions within us, rather than the other way around. We don't make music -- it makes us.

Making music is like constructing a machine whose function is to dredge up emotions in performer and listener alike. Some people find this idea repulsive, because it seems to relegate the artist to the level of trickster, manipulator, and deceiver -- a kind of self-justifying onanist. They would prefer to see music as an expression of emotion rather than a generator of it, to believe in the artist as someone with something to say."

while I think it can be useful to look at the artistic process from a purely mechanistic point of view when you are analyzing how and why an image works, I think it is also important to remember that art is as much a process of discovery as it is one of communication.  Whether writing music or taking a photograph, the artist searches for the elelments that create the right feeling that makes the peice work.

The 'artist' who creates a work purely through known rules is not discovering anything new.  This is the kind of work that takes no risks.

I tend to think of my process of taking a photograph as "learning how to see".  I don't take photographs using the known rules of composition.  Instead, i take photographs to better understand how composition works.  For me, the fun is in learning how to see more deeply.
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Rob C

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Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2015, 02:21:14 PM »

And poor old Garry Winogrand became so compulsively drawn to it that he died leaving between 2,600 and 4,500 undeveloped cassettes of film... the figures vary from source to source, casting doubt on the entire matter.

But is that healthy? Surely that's obsession and little more? But then isn't all of art compulsive? You are, or you are not an artist, something entirely outwith your control...

But, is compulsively shooting everything that passes you, that seems to fit within your obsession of frame, truly art, especially if you never see the result? He apparently once claimed to photograph things just to see how they would 'photograph' which, if you abandon processing them, you never know or, on the other hand, you do know just so completely that, in effect, you do have all the answers and your life's journey is over: you achieved the understanding and it doesn't matter anymore - it's the doing that becomes absolute master of you.

I tend to believe this is true, because I find that I also seem to be clicking away like a machine on auto, simply because I have always clicked... what to do if there's silence?

Rob C

GrahamBy

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Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2015, 03:50:56 PM »

Isn't this close to the thought that drove Henri C-B to put down the Leica and concentrate on drawing?
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Rob C

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Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2015, 05:30:41 PM »

Isn't this close to the thought that drove Henri C-B to put down the Leica and concentrate on drawing?

I'm not sure about the reasons - I haven't read enough about him to come across a defining moment (ironic!) that would explain this. If Russ is reading this, perhaps he has the answer, as his library if far, far more extensive than my meagre one!

There may be practical reasons, such as the fading market interest in photojournalism over the span of his time, or as I think you suggested, boredom born from the knowledge that he already knew what he was going to get. Possibly, as with myself, as time goes by the world becomes a less interesting place in some ways, and you find more interesting things inside than without.

The unknown is exciting when you don't know much, but the more you learn the fuller your life has become and, as with anything, you reach your personal saturation point. He did travel a lot beyond the French borders, saw much of mid-century history being made... and best of all, he got the fame in his lifetime and never needed the money.

It sure helps that he was always an artist, though!

Rob C

GrahamBy

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Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2015, 06:03:51 PM »

Now, thanks to your ingenious solution, no more struggle: I will simply use both at the same time!  ;)

Hmm, I think you're Serbian, from the name? Anyway, another gent I know with similar origins solved it in the other way... he never used either. Gave his writing a punchy feel :-)
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tnargs

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Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2015, 06:37:34 PM »

(writing to someone else)...You object when other people snipe, but when you snipe at others it's "humour".

Thank you, I agree with this wholeheartedly. I too am sick of people who write 'smartypants' comments that are sarcastic and negative either directly or by implication, but because they wrap it in notional humour or wit, they think it's okay.

Leave that stuff for your personal blog, people. For a community forum, be genuinely nice. When necessary, disagree with people cordially and respectfully.
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“Symbolism exists to adorn and enrich, not to create an artificial sense of profundity.” ― Stephen King

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Trickster, manipulator, deceiver / Someone with something to say
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2015, 06:51:53 PM »

... they think it's okay....

You bet :)

I would rather poke my eye with a plastic spoon than talk to "genuinely nice" people (a PC term for those whose sense of humor was surgically removed at birth) that are genuinely booooriiing.
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