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Author Topic: Film Medium format for Beginners  (Read 4770 times)

philaitman

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Film Medium format for Beginners
« on: December 01, 2015, 09:47:05 am »

Hi,
I shoot full frame digital with a D800, prior to switching to digital some years ago it was 35mm film with an F601.
I've only recently started shooting some medium format film with a TLR. I'm loving the look, but I would like more control and options than the TLR offers. A local camera shop has a Hasselblad 500c + 80mm T* WLF 120 back for the equivalent of $820. It's been recently serviced and had a the shutter repaired. This seems like a good price I'm aware this is an old camera and has a great build quality.
Do you think this is worth the money? I'm aware keeping an old Hasselblad maintained can be a cash cow, but I guess that's the price you pay.

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SZRitter

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Re: Film Medium format for Beginners
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2015, 10:01:59 am »

If you don't want to spend the money, you could look into a Bronica SQ-A (if you still want 6x6). That said, that sounds fairly in the ballpark for a dealer sold 500c. Compare prices to KEH, and add just a bit more to get about what a local dealer should be charging.
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Theodoros

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Re: Film Medium format for Beginners
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2015, 10:38:52 am »

Agree... for film, I would favor the Bronica, an SQAi with grip and prism is by far more ergonomic than anything else and can be purchased at peanuts cost... Even the ETRSi could be an alternative (for further reduction in size) if 6x4.5 is considered... They both should be more reliable and accurate than the Hassy too as their reliability is proven and the leaf shutter is the electronic "Seiko O" which is the "king of leaf shutters"... If you do decide on a Bronica though, insist on PE lenses for the ETRSi or PS for the SQAi... they are as close to Zeiss quality as not to care and much better than the previous series... You can get the lenses for "next to nothing" prices too...
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philaitman

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Re: Film Medium format for Beginners
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2015, 10:57:51 am »

Thank you I'll start a bit of research on the Bronica.
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razrblck

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Re: Film Medium format for Beginners
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2015, 10:59:10 am »

Agree on the Bronica, I own a well used (as in used by a wedding and fashion photographer) Bronica ETRS with grip and prism. PE lenses are definitely a safe bet, and they provide you with half stops as well. I own the 75mm EII and the 150mm MC (f/3.5, not the f/4 rubbish), and they are both outstanding considering I paid 150€ for both.

If you want something even bigger, you can get the Bronica GS-1, which is a 6x7 reflex in the same style as the others and, possibly, the smallest 6x7 modular reflex on the market. Any lens for the GS-1 is at PE level or above, it was the last camera Bronica ever made and it just shows in every corner.

Any of those Bronicas will last you a lifetime, they are truly workhorse in the medium format world. Hell, I even chipped a wooden floor by dropping mine once (it has been dropped multiple times by the previous owner, but has no dents).

P.S. Get as many backs as you can, because they always come in handy! Also don't lose the dark slides.
P.P.S Attached some shots with the 150mm (1, 2, 3) and 75mm (4).
« Last Edit: December 01, 2015, 11:06:06 am by razrblck »
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philaitman

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Re: Film Medium format for Beginners
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2015, 11:11:06 am »

Again thank you for the advice. It is very much appreciated.
In the UK I can see quite a few SQ A for sale (at good prices) but only a few AI (for a bit more) I'll google some research on the differences but would appreciated your expert views on the A vs AI?
Almost all seem to have a Zenanon 80mm F2.8 I guess this must be the standard as supplied lens.
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Theodoros

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Re: Film Medium format for Beginners
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2015, 01:20:44 pm »

Again thank you for the advice. It is very much appreciated.
In the UK I can see quite a few SQ A for sale (at good prices) but only a few AI (for a bit more) I'll google some research on the differences but would appreciated your expert views on the A vs AI?
Almost all seem to have a Zenanon 80mm F2.8 I guess this must be the standard as supplied lens.

This is exactly what you should look for... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Zenza-Bronica-SQ-Ai-Objektiv-Zenzanon-PS-80mm-f-2-8-ref1-/321877806115?hash=item4af1698c23:g:PfkAAOSwuTxWCEFh don't rush yourself as there are plenty in UK... SQA is the previous model to SQAi... the later has TTL flash metering and some more minor refinements... make sure the lenses are marked PS (like the one on the listing)...
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Christoph B.

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Re: Film Medium format for Beginners
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2015, 02:40:37 pm »

If I were a beginner, I'd rather start with 6x4.5 than 6x7 - you can shoot more frames on a roll, which will help you in the beginning.
Apart from that focussing isn't as critical on 645 as it is on 67 - and there are a lot of lenses and camera options available for 645.

Mamiya, Pentax, Broncia, Contax, Hasselblad - all of them offer 645 versions (or in Hasselblads case a back) and most of them are readily available and cheap.

Most of those are also adaptable for digital use and with the prices of used backs getting lower by the day that should also be considered.
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Rob C

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Re: Film Medium format for Beginners
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2015, 03:04:14 pm »

Thank you I'll start a bit of research on the Bronica.


Save your money.

I've owned two 500 Series 'blads (from new) and they both helped me keep a good business alive, and would have done so much, much longer had I not listened to stock agents and bought into Bronica 6x7 GS-1, my first - and worst - 6x7 camera system. From new, parts failed to work, and the bits that did continue were let down by the glass. Yuck.

I got one good travel company poster from it with the 250mm. The 100mm wasn't all bad but the 50mm sucked. I wouldn't touch Bronica with a stick. It deserved to perish.

IMO!

Rob C

araucaria

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Re: Film Medium format for Beginners
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2015, 03:09:55 pm »

Get the hassy.
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Theodoros

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Re: Film Medium format for Beginners
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2015, 03:18:54 pm »

If I were a beginner, I'd rather start with 6x4.5 than 6x7 - you can shoot more frames on a roll, which will help you in the beginning.
Apart from that focussing isn't as critical on 645 as it is on 67 - and there are a lot of lenses and camera options available for 645.

Mamiya, Pentax, Broncia, Contax, Hasselblad - all of them offer 645 versions (or in Hasselblads case a back) and most of them are readily available and cheap.

Most of those are also adaptable for digital use and with the prices of used backs getting lower by the day that should also be considered.

6X4.5 backs are available for all 6x6 cameras... plenty for Bronica SQ too... Hasselblad V MFDBs are usable on Bronica SQAi via an adapter plate, but even if the back is for other than Hasselblad, one can make his own plate for whatever mount the back is quite easily and at next to nothing cost...
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Theodoros

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Re: Film Medium format for Beginners
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2015, 03:41:35 pm »


Save your money.

I've owned two 500 Series 'blads (from new) and they both helped me keep a good business alive, and would have done so much, much longer had I not listened to stock agents and bought into Bronica 6x7 GS-1, my first - and worst - 6x7 camera system. From new, parts failed to work, and the bits that did continue were let down by the glass. Yuck.

I got one good travel company poster from it with the 250mm. The 100mm wasn't all bad but the 50mm sucked. I wouldn't touch Bronica with a stick. It deserved to perish.

IMO!

Rob C

Me on the other hand started shooting weddings with ETRS in UK at the age of 19 (parallel to my degree in MechEng there) and although I took the sh@@t out of them after I replaced them for ETRSi at mid 80s with the introduction of ETRSi having used them in hundreds of events and for all other tasks too, they worked like new until 2005 where I aimed for AF & lens speed with my current Contax 645 system... (the current owner still uses them). Same with the SQA/SQAi users I know....  The reliability reputation of the Bronica ETRS/SQA (same technology shared on the two) is beyond the roof among pros (don't know about the GS-1 as they where quite rare) that have used them for years under real torture circumstances and surely well beyond Hassy reputation... The GS system never was Bronica's "white ship" and that shows with the lens line of it...
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Christoph B.

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Re: Film Medium format for Beginners
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2015, 03:50:41 pm »

6X4.5 backs are available for all 6x6 cameras... plenty for Bronica SQ too... Hasselblad V MFDBs are usable on Bronica SQAi via an adapter plate, but even if the back is for other than Hasselblad, one can make his own plate for whatever mount the back is quite easily and at next to nothing cost...

Except for PentaconSix, Kiev60, folding cameras, Kowa, all TLRs - or Holga for that matter hehe ;)

I wouldn't advise anyone to make their own back mounts, they have to be very, very(!) precise and at the same time sturdy and secure enough to hold the digital back.

Personally I'd get a Mamiya or Hasselblad - maybe Bronica. But only just maybe, they aren't as widespread so when you're in need of a replacement part it might not be as easy...and honestly - they aren't really much cheaper than a Hasselblad or a Mamiya.
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Rob C

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Re: Film Medium format for Beginners
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2015, 04:19:48 pm »

Me on the other hand started shooting weddings with ETRS in UK at the age of 19 (parallel to my degree in MechEng there) and although I took the sh@@t out of them after I replaced them for ETRSi at mid 80s with the introduction of ETRSi having used them in hundreds of events and for all other tasks too, they worked like new until 2005 where I aimed for AF & lens speed with my current Contax 645 system... (the current owner still uses them). Same with the SQA/SQAi users I know....  The reliability reputation of the Bronica ETRS/SQA (same technology shared on the two) is beyond the roof among pros (don't know about the GS-1 as they where quite rare) that have used them for years under real torture circumstances and surely well beyond Hassy reputation... The GS system never was Bronica's "white ship" and that shows with the lens line of it...

One thing I do grant you re. the 6x6 Bronicas: if you took an early one, put it on a table, let it fire by itself, it could jump right off said table! I don't think Hassy could match it for camera acrobatics...

;-)

Rob C

SZRitter

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Re: Film Medium format for Beginners
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2015, 04:21:06 pm »

I think one thing to question, is what is this camera for? Is it just a knockaround play thing for you, or is a serious working tool? While the SQ (or in my case ETRS) is fine as a knockaround camera, if I was using it seriously for client work, I would probably consider a camera that is still in production, or at least the company is still producing cameras and will service the one you are looking at.

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Theodoros

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Re: Film Medium format for Beginners
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2015, 04:30:01 pm »

Except for PentaconSix, Kiev60, folding cameras, Kowa, all TLRs - or Holga for that matter hehe ;)

I wouldn't advise anyone to make their own back mounts, they have to be very, very(!) precise and at the same time sturdy and secure enough to hold the digital back.

Personally I'd get a Mamiya or Hasselblad - maybe Bronica. But only just maybe, they aren't as widespread so when you're in need of a replacement part it might not be as easy...and honestly - they aren't really much cheaper than a Hasselblad or a Mamiya.
Bronicas are all over the place in UK for silly prices... less than 1/3 of Hassy respective for both cameras and lenses... UK & (less so) Germany were the Bronica's leading markets outside Japan during the film era...

Shimming an MFDB sensor is much easier than many people think and can be done with extreme accuracy... One has to use a film back without an insert and fit a bright screen with split image as to touch the capturing window sides... Then he sets up a scale and shims the rear screen as to match with the viewing screen, then he cuts a plate (with no hinges on) as to match the rear screen from camera back distance letting for some more saving off on the plate.. then he uses the rear screen on the plates opening and checks back for focus matching with the viewfinder screen... Then he saves off what is needed on the plate as to achieve perfect matching and after it is achieved, attaches the appropriate hinges and it's done!

That way, one can mount a whatever fit back (not only Hasselblad V, but M645 or C645 or anything else) on a Bronica with perfect accuracy!
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philaitman

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Re: Film Medium format for Beginners
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2015, 05:45:53 pm »

Thank you again Gentlemen :)
The camera is mainly for fun, quiet minimal projects and an alternative to my ubiquitous and heavily used D800. Some days I want nothing to do with technology (I've worked in IT for 25 years) and yearn to do simple shoot slowly, develop and wait for the surprise of feast or famine. Then I might scan and print when I feel like facing technology again :)
I've sourced a mint AI very near to me i can go and look at and it's less than half the price of the Hasselblad (I know there's many reasons for that).
As for the format I love square 6x6. I frequently shoot for and post crop to square even with digital. I find the composition style it forces on you very pleasing.

Once again thank for the information and the discussion.
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JV

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Re: Film Medium format for Beginners
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2015, 05:54:55 pm »

As for the format I love square 6x6. I frequently shoot for and post crop to square even with digital.

More expensive than the Hasselblad but the Hy6 is a better camera IMO with some AF lenses and easier to focus manually due to the focus confirmation.
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SZRitter

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Re: Film Medium format for Beginners
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2015, 10:16:17 am »

Thank you again Gentlemen :)
The camera is mainly for fun, quiet minimal projects and an alternative to my ubiquitous and heavily used D800. Some days I want nothing to do with technology (I've worked in IT for 25 years) and yearn to do simple shoot slowly, develop and wait for the surprise of feast or famine. Then I might scan and print when I feel like facing technology again :)
I've sourced a mint AI very near to me i can go and look at and it's less than half the price of the Hasselblad (I know there's many reasons for that).
As for the format I love square 6x6. I frequently shoot for and post crop to square even with digital. I find the composition style it forces on you very pleasing.

Once again thank for the information and the discussion.

As a web developer by trade, I know exactly what you mean. I seem to be moving more and more things at home to older, more manual processes. I use a brush, shave soap and razor instead of an electric shaver. I have gotten rid of the coffee maker and do pour over or a siphon on the stove. I also shoot B&W and occasionally color film as it just makes me feel more connected to what I shoot.

That said, yes, the Hassie is probably a slightly nicer camera, but i your situation, I would go Bronica. If you can get the two side by side, I would handle them, and see what makes you feel better as you use them. Who knows, maybe you end up with another TLR or two instead? Mamiya (C330?) made one with interchangeable modules to get different lenses. Find the camera that improves your photography experience, not just the one that looks nicer on paper.
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