Color profile 101

[Andres Bonilla]

I know this is problably a very basic question but I would like to know your input. I recently bought a digital camera and the RAW  files come in Adobe 1998. The web I understand is Srgb wich is a narrower color gamut, when I save for the web I noticed the change in color and contrast, so I adjust accordingly. This morning for the first time I started printing the first photos out of my PSD Adobe 1998 files. They came out dark and muddy. Several prints later I got what I wanted but it meant adjusting the file with curves and levels  to produce a lighter photo. Does my Epson 1270 has a narrower color gamut? I also have a brand new Nec monitor that is very bright, 400 cmd, could that be tricking my eyes? I never had this problem when shooting film because the Nikon scanner was Srgb as my working color space, what I saw  I got pretty much on my prints.  Do I need to create custom profiles for my digital photos? Pardon my inexperience.


Andres

[digitaldog]

Unless you're using the tiny handful of Mac browsers, you're not going to match the color in Photoshop because these browsers are not color managed. They neither recognize your display profile or any embedded profiles in documents. Save for web also doesn't automatically convert files to sRGB.

As for printing, you really want to convert from either color space to the actual output color space of your printer. You might get closer starting from sRGB (some printer drivers assume this is the color space for an internal conversion) but you can work with Adobe RGB (1998) IF you setup the driver or use Photoshop to first convert to the output color space the printer expects.

[Loadus]

The raw images from your camera might be in 1.00 gamma (as they should be) and your printer is not taking that into consider when it prints them (hence the dark and muddy). I'll go with digitaldog on this one and advice that you take a look at your printer profile. What program are you using to print them? Photoshop or something else?

[Andres Bonilla]

Thanks guys for the response! Ok, I am using Photoshop CS2 to print to an Epson 1270 with the canned profiles that came with the printer on Epson papers. How do I check the color space of the printer? I am at the office so I don't have access to my printer but I think I saw the gamma at 1.8 on my Epson. Novice question, how do I convert in CS2 the color space output of the printer. I could assign a color profile to the photo but I may as well only work on sRGB if I have to readjust the Adobe 1998 once I convert it to sRGB.

I appreciate your help,


Andres

[Andres Bonilla]

Ok, since this thread is dying I'll try to get a couple of more suggestions. For all you photographers out there what is you workflow? You open in RAW a file and adjust it, you then save it as PSD or TIFF, then when you open it in CS2 you get the warning that the file is a different color space by being Adobe 1998 ( assuming the working space is sRGB ) SO WHAT DO YOU GUYS DO? Do you continue working in Adobe 1998 with its wider color gamut or you convert to sRGB considering web display? What about for printing?  What is the point to work with a wider color space if you have to rework the file after converting it to sRGB to match the original adjustments. Do you guys use adobe gamma to profile your monitors? If the gamma from your RAW files are 1.00 and the printer is 1.8 do you change the settings in the printer?? Even with a calibrated monitor would you still be working with 2 different color spaces, one from the camera and one for printing and the web?

Thanks,

Andres

[Dmitry]

I know this is problably a very basic question but I would like to know your input. I recently bought a digital camera and the RAW  files come in Adobe 1998. The web I understand is Srgb wich is a narrower color gamut, when I save for the web I noticed the change in color and contrast, so I adjust accordingly. This morning for the first time I started printing the first photos out of my PSD Adobe 1998 files. They came out dark and muddy. Several prints later I got what I wanted but it meant adjusting the file with curves and levels  to produce a lighter photo. Does my Epson 1270 has a narrower color gamut? I also have a brand new Nec monitor that is very bright, 400 cmd, could that be tricking my eyes? I never had this problem when shooting film because the Nikon scanner was Srgb as my working color space, what I saw  I got pretty much on my prints.  Do I need to create custom profiles for my digital photos? Pardon my inexperience.
Andres
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Adobe RGB and sRGB have different "white point" (D50 and D65) and different gamma (1.8 and 2.2). (Raw files have gamma 1.0 and have different dynamic range)
Adobe RGB hase wider gamut than sRGB. But your printer has own gamut, that differs from both (it has different shape and area in color space- "RGB" spaces have "triangle" shape, printers gamut have "quadrilateral" shape).  But there are Color Management Modules, that transform one gamut to another using some startegy.
If your recieve dark printing images you have to check:
1. Color Management is on
2. The source ICC profile is present in source file.
3. The printer's ICC profile is set
4.The monitor's ICC profile is set
5. The sutable startegy of gamit changing is select.

You can download profiles from manufactures sites.

[Schewe]

Adobe RGB and sRGB have different "white point" (D50 and D65) and different gamma (1.8 and 2.2).
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Uh, no. . .actually. Adobe RGB (1998) and sRGB BOTH have a white point of D65 and a gamma of 2.2. ProPhoto RGB has a white point of D50 and 1.8 gamma, but the white point & gamma of the working space in Photoshop has no baring on the computer display other than the fact that un-color managed apps basically think everything is "monitor RGB". If you are working in a color manged environment and printing using proper profiles with the proper workflow Photoshop handles the color managemnet chores.

On the other hand if you are driving a computer display at 400 cd/m2 then the issue is one of over-driving the display. If anything you should be using soft proofing to mimic the contrast range of prints which is far less contrast than a display at 400 cd/m2.

[Loadus]

... what is you workflow?... WHAT DO YOU GUYS DO? Do you continue working in
Adobe 1998 with its wider color gamut or you convert to sRGB considering web
display?

I'll give you a glimpse on how I print my digital photos. There are zillion other ways
to go about this, but this is how I do it now. (And no, I don't use photoshop, but the
workflow is no different)

1. My camera is the Casio EX-P600 - I import the pictures in RAW format (12-bit images)

2. Open them in Paint Shop Pro X (All the Pros go eeeeoouugghh!)  Color working
space is either AIM RGB Pro or CIE 1931 D65 Gamma 1.00 depending on what media
the image is for.

3. Tweak the colors just a little bit. My camera has it's own profile but I tend to mock
up the colors for a more "artistic" tones.

4. I save the image in 16-bit TIFF with the profiles embedded and later open them in
Corel Draw or Photo-Paint for printing (I use the printer's own profile in Corel's
internal color management system, and the printer driver prints the pictures without
any color adjustments)

5. For web viewing I open the images in Photo-Paint and change the profile to sRGB.

6. Here's the resulting sRGB Image

That's my workflow. And I let the program handle the ICM management fully. The
printer just prints what comes out from the program. Hope this gives some help to
you.

[marc.s]

For all you photographers out there what is you workflow?
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First of all, if your monitor is set to 400 cd/m2 you probably need to tune it down as that is really bright. 120 cd/m2 seems to be the general consensus for LCDs.

I use Photoshop and Adobe Camera Raw, so everything happens in Photoshop. I always work in Adobe RGB. So the process is that I open the raw image in ACR, adjust settings as necessary, and either save it as a TIFF for later in 16bit Adobe RGB, or just open it to Photoshop (in 16bit mode, Adobe RGB). So I never get any warnings. I then play with it in Photoshop and save the Photoshop file. Since I have my pictures printed at a lab I convert the file to 8bit and save it as jpeg and send it to them.

If I want to save for web I convert to 8bit srgb.

[digitaldog]

First of all, if your monitor is set to 400 cd/m2...

You need to be wearing protective eye goggles <g>.

That's super bright and not at all good for the display (you'd like it to last a few years) nor will you be able to view prints without blasting them with an equal dose of radiation. I agree, 120cd/m2 seems a lot more reasonable.