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Author Topic: A New Change For Luminous-Landscape  (Read 145592 times)

rumplestiltskin

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Re: A New Change For Luminous-Landscape
« Reply #200 on: November 24, 2015, 10:05:09 pm »

More than reasonable.
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James Clark

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Re: A New Change For Luminous-Landscape
« Reply #201 on: November 24, 2015, 10:50:50 pm »

Although I would (and will) happily pony up the $12 with absolutely no qualms, I think the decision to maintain the forums as a free area is the correct one for the long term health of the site.  Time will tell, but I suspect that the draw of the forums will, over time , entice more people to subscribe to the paywall than forcing forum readers to pay would coerce to join.   (Does that make sense?   Basically the openness of the forums will be a net positive vs the amount of people that would actually pay to stay on the forums).

All that said, the complaints of not enough value to be had for $12 strike me as quite offensive to the folks that create and maintain this space for us.  OTOH, I do hope the content contributors are paid as well...
« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 10:54:06 pm by James Clark »
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amolitor

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Re: A New Change For Luminous-Landscape
« Reply #202 on: November 24, 2015, 11:28:40 pm »

I have to say my jaw dropped when I saw the announcement that the site was going to substantially alter its new business model based on a handful of comments made in their forum.

This is a web site with somewhere between 10,000 and 100,000 regular readers.

The regular posters in the forums represent a self-selected and very very small subset of the people you actually need to persuade. Further, a very small subset of that population has thus far weighed in at all, and only a fraction of those suggested making the forums free. As many suggested, or implied, they didn't want the forums free (mainly so their enemies would presumably be excluded, which isn't the best of reasons).

It's really none of my business, but this isn't coming across like a particularly well thought out plan. I hope there are wheels within wheels here, things I'm not aware of.

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thebatman

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Re: A New Change For Luminous-Landscape
« Reply #203 on: November 24, 2015, 11:42:30 pm »

It's really none of my business, but this isn't coming across like a particularly well thought out plan.

Honestly I think you need to lighten up.  The owners of LuLa are trying something new, great.  You don't want to pay, no problem.  They reflected on comments for 24 hours and probably realized having free forums really was the right thing to do and better long term for the site, terrific.  They can do whatever they want and all of us will choose to pay or not pay.  For me it's a no-brainer to support what they do.  For others maybe not, but that's fine.  However the last thing I'd do is come onto their turf and suggest they haven't got a good plan. If they were so bad at managing the site I don't think LuLa would get 1M hits per month, which no doubt is an infinitely larger reach than any of us who are posting here. Regardless, do what you want but it really looks bad to take unwarranted shots at the people who spend so much time to create this community that many of us truly value, especially with all the things *actually* important that are going on in the world today.  Live and let live.
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amolitor

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Re: A New Change For Luminous-Landscape
« Reply #204 on: November 24, 2015, 11:45:44 pm »

As I said, I rather hope there are wheels within wheels here.
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: A New Change For Luminous-Landscape
« Reply #205 on: November 24, 2015, 11:46:27 pm »

Kevin posted on the past page....

Quote
Thank you for you comments.  Michael, Chris and I have been following the topic all day.  We have heard you and we will keep the forum as a FREE portion of the Luminous-Landscape site.  The rest of the site will be part of the membership site.  The exception is the For Sale topic.  If you wish to post there you will need to be a member.  Thanks for the feedback.

In case you didn't see it
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John Hollenberg

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Re: A New Change For Luminous-Landscape
« Reply #206 on: November 25, 2015, 12:18:42 am »

It's really none of my business...

You certainly have a lot of comments about how a site is run that is "none of my business" and one which has "negative value" for you.  It may very well be that your comments have "negative value" for the rest of us.
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amolitor

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Re: A New Change For Luminous-Landscape
« Reply #207 on: November 25, 2015, 12:37:17 am »

Hey, look, it's a discussion forum! Look, there's a topic, what's this? The topic is changes to the web site!

I know, let's discuss that topic in the discussion forum!

Or not, because when you say things that some people disagree with, they just tell you to shut up. Did I misread this? Is this a not-discussion forum? Is this a discussion forum, but only for people who say things John Hollenberg thinks are worthwhile? Can someone point out the the part I missed where John Hollenberg was appointed king?

Please.
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gjanee

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Re: A New Change For Luminous-Landscape
« Reply #208 on: November 25, 2015, 12:39:11 am »

Here's how I look at it.  There are three reasons for visiting LuLa:

1. The content supplied by the site: articles, reviews, videos, etc.
2. The forum (user-contributed content and discussion)
3. Entertainment factor ("I'm bored, wonder what's going on, what people are talking about")

Each of us has a personal calculus determining how much we will pay for each category.  For me, for #3 (entertainment factor) I will pay nothing, I'll just occupy myself elsewhere.

For #2  (forum), it's doubtful I would pay for the forum.  I have only paid to access one forum ever, and LuLa isn't going to be the second.  Unfortunately, I predict this will be a common view, and therefore this will hurt LuLa, for the value of the forum is in direct relation to the number of people visiting and contributing to it.

This leaves #1.  I can see some people deciding that they get more than $12 worth of content from LuLa each year, and others deciding they don't.

Overall, my recommendation would be to charge your $12 for #1 only, and leave the forum open.  And focus on generating more content to entice more people to subscribe.
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image66

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Re: A New Change For Luminous-Landscape
« Reply #209 on: November 25, 2015, 01:28:43 am »

It's not as simple as that. Web advertising is taking a bath, and it's going to get worse. Probably a lot worse.

http://idlewords.com/2015/11/the_advertising_bubble.htm

You can just look this stuff up, it turns out, you needn't make wild (and, it turns out, completely wrong) guesses.

Total gross advertising dollars rises and falls with the overall economy. How it is parsed out and the methods used change. We can see this in action with major sites like cnn and facebook where click-bait is the new normal. In traditional forms of media (print, broadcast, outdoor), the dollars continue to shift but maintain their edge as they have proven and measurable results. As I look at the banner advertisement on the top of this very page as I type this message, I see advertisements for a virtual photography workshop in Japan, Mamiya Leaf, Cambo, ARCA Swiss, Alpa and Phase One products. None of which have any bearing to me. Again, this is a sign that the target demographic of this site is so narrow that it is self filtering and self limiting.

My wild, completely wrong, guesses are probably not so wild and completely wrong. It was not clearly stated whether or not LL gets one million visitors a month or one million UNIQUE visitors a month. For a site like this, that can be as high as a 20:1 difference. No wild guesses, this is the fact. This means that the typical person visiting LL will visit as many as 20 times a month. This includes the forums. The stats are easy to pull. My own site averages 2.5 visits a month per visitor with 4.7 page views per visit. 20 times a month might be a little high, but for a site with an active forum, that is not unusual. The non-forum part of LL with actual publisher provided content is likely closer to my 2.5 visits per month average.

Regardless, this is where I have a problem with the numbers. If this site really is getting one million UNIQUE visitors a month, with an average of four page-views per visitor, this is SERIOUSLY sellable. An active advertising placement team would be able to monetize this in a heartbeat. ONE MILLION SETS OF EYEBALLS EVERY MONTH!!! Facebook, which is worth billions upon billions of dollars only gets 800 times that many sets of eyeballs. LL is giving away tens of thousands of dollars a month in FREE advertising to these companies providing success-based advertising commission income. I know how much click-revenue there is because I use it on my site too and it is just enough to cover my web-hosting fees and an occasional Starbucks Latte. At the peak, my website was producing over 40,000 UNIQUE visitors a month, and I realized that I was literally giving away tremendous amounts of advertising to companies in exchange for an occasional pittance. In the broadcast world, these are known as PI (per inquiry) advertisements and the only time they are run is in the middle of the night where no other advertiser will bother wasting their money. The PI advertisements are used to fill commercial breaks during network feeds. On cable television, these are usually the commercials for 20 CD sets of songs from some dead person for 12 monthly payments of $10 each. You'll never encounter these advertisements during the morning drive time on radio or the evening news hour on television.

I am NOT saying that this site isn't getting one million unique visitors a month or even one million visits a month. I don't have access to the web stats for this site. But either way, this is an example where our experts on photography and camera-exotica have made a substantial business error in not having an effective sales/marketing team to monetize the site. Changing to a subscription model MIGHT work out in the long run, but I don't think the statistics are on LL's side in this regard.

Ken
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landscapephoto

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Re: A New Change For Luminous-Landscape
« Reply #210 on: November 25, 2015, 01:48:16 am »

Thank you for you comments.  Michael, Chris and I have been following the topic all day.  We have heard you and we will keep the forum as a FREE portion of the Luminous-Landscape site.  The rest of the site will be part of the membership site.  The exception is the For Sale topic.  If you wish to post there you will need to be a member.  Thanks for the feedback.

I am not sure I understand. The subscription for the videos used to be 150$/year. Now, the price is lowered to 12$/year? Is that it?
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hsteeves

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Re: A New Change For Luminous-Landscape
« Reply #211 on: November 25, 2015, 02:40:03 am »

I live in a small Canadian prairie town.  For night time fun and excitement, you can go outside and listen to the coyotes howl.  Sometimes it is a little cold out there, sometimes it is a death wish as the 37 different species of mosquitos descend on you.  I can have a nice beer and read a magazine, which cost $8 or I can read LuLa for $1/month.  Now I can go through years of videos.  This may take awhile. As you can see, I'm good with the price and the revised plan.
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: A New Change For Luminous-Landscape
« Reply #212 on: November 25, 2015, 04:02:26 am »

People need to lighten up:)

It's really simple:

1. You either find the content is worth it, and you pay the small price of 1USD/month;

2. Or you don't find the content useful and don't pay.

You can actually base your decision by sampling about 15 years worth of content. You either like it, or you don't. This site is more mature than the usual ones where you are flooded with the "what lens should I buy to visit whatever city"...

jeremyrh

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Re: A New Change For Luminous-Landscape
« Reply #213 on: November 25, 2015, 04:36:20 am »

People need to lighten up:)

It's really simple:

1. You either find the content is worth it, and you pay the small price of 1USD/month;

2. Or you don't find the content useful and don't pay.

If the forum remains free it's simpler. While it was proposed that Lula would sell other people's work it was less so.

Of course one may also argue that the forum ( user IP) is being used to attract people to give money to Lula. In a world of Linux and Wikipedia it is strange to start charging.
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sandymc

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Re: A New Change For Luminous-Landscape
« Reply #214 on: November 25, 2015, 04:50:11 am »

Thank you for you comments.  Michael, Chris and I have been following the topic all day.  We have heard you and we will keep the forum as a FREE portion of the Luminous-Landscape site.  The rest of the site will be part of the membership site.  The exception is the For Sale topic.  If you wish to post there you will need to be a member.  Thanks for the feedback.

I think that's absolutely the right decision for the long term future of the site - thanks and congratulations to all of you for making it.
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dchew

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Re: A New Change For Luminous-Landscape
« Reply #215 on: November 25, 2015, 05:54:39 am »

$12/yr? I'm signing up, along with my dog and maybe my cat too.

Dave
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Diego Pigozzo

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Re: A New Change For Luminous-Landscape
« Reply #216 on: November 25, 2015, 05:57:25 am »

$12/yr? I'm signing up, along with my dog and maybe my cat too.

I guess it's one of those cats with a catcam on its neck :D :D
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mhawel

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Re: A New Change For Luminous-Landscape
« Reply #217 on: November 25, 2015, 07:48:17 am »

Great price guys, I, like most seem to think that it's a good price, and will be signing up. However, I really do hope lots of other people who aren't here commenting already, feel the same way, and sign up as well, so the video content can pick up a little.

My last outright purchase, the Video primer, I felt was terribly lacking, and was orphaned. This past year of video content was absolutely minimal, the only thing I found interest in and can even remember, was the Photograph America video, but absolutely not worth $150, as it was advertising. The price I paid for the Photograph America memory stick and subscription as a result of that advertising I feel has great value, but not the $150 subscription that alerted me to it's existence... It's a good thing I didn't renew my Purple subscription when they came knocking a few weeks ago! Three years of membership at another $150 for a $36 value is not a good deal LOL.

I have no problem at all paying $12 for the site content as is, even if the video segments don't pick up the pace.
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theophilus

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Re: A New Change For Luminous-Landscape
« Reply #218 on: November 25, 2015, 10:14:31 am »

I've been reading this site for 10+ years and got videos back when they were mailed to you on a disc.  In recent years I haven't really posted in the forums or bought any video.

For $12/year I will certainly subscribe.  I would definitely like videos that focus on post-processing techniques in lightroom or photoshop, or even other more obscure programs.
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Mark Lindquist

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Re: A New Change For Luminous-Landscape
« Reply #219 on: November 25, 2015, 11:13:56 am »

Michael, Kevin, Chris,

I do think it would be a good idea to include an option for us to contribute more than $12.00 during the yearly sign up.

Many of us feel we could/would/should contribute more above and beyond what you are asking.

For many, this would be a way to give back.  For others, it would be a way to get behind your new direction.

I do think the decision to exempt the forum is wise.  In a way, the forum is the ambassador to your main website.  People find it from Google searches for solutions to problems they encounter with gear or process or techniques, etc.

At any rate, best wishes with the changes - I for one am very excited about your forward movement.

-Mark
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