A New Change For Luminous-Landscape

[elolaugesen]

Great.....cost money to be in businesss.    Will subscribe...   Keep site as it is for a while......then you will find out who is really using your fabulous services and then adapt site for them

[digitaldog]

Otto,  What you don't see is how often we do ban users either temporarily or permanently.  We hope that the Forum stays civil and we'll be watching it carefully. Chris send lots of PM to certain posters letting them know they step over the line.

He does a great job! I don't see how a fee changes anything. Easily the best forum on photography anywhere on the internet. It ain't broke, don't even think about a fix due to that $1 a month entry fee.

[amolitor]

I have to say, I am a little surprised that they didn't focus group this a little. They have the emails, they could easily have done a survey to set the price point and test the idea. As it is, they're operating with industry standard best-guesses as to conversion rates, and hoping for the best. I mean, I get why they're doing it, the trends are all going the wrong way, and something's got to give. Chucking this sort of radical pivot into the mix feels like a bit of a Hail Mary pass.

In fact, I am constantly surprised that folks who run web sites like this aren't running market research operations. They're got a ton of motivated, high-quality, eyeballs. All you have to do is ask questions in an organized way, and you can learn a lot of things. And then you can sell that actionable intelligence to, in this case, camera companies.

[GregW]

the fault in your logic is so obvious - when I donate to a gallery that charges the entrance fees I know that it does... not the same with the forum

This is quite an interesting area. For a number of years now most forums have operated on a relatively simple basis. You as the poster own the copyright but in signing up you grant the operator a pretty generous license to use and potentially transfer the content. The operator owns the collection or thread. Less common are forums that have been structured around collective ownership. If the forums is commercialised or sold members will benefit.

This has generally worked well because forum operator gets some legal protection if posters upload illegal or copyrighted material, and the original poster still owns the posted content.

In practice because most forums are small and non-profit things run smoothly. Disgruntled or banned members are not normally in a financial position to argue ownership in law and operators while not keen on deleting posts for fear of devaluing their forum will normally agree to anonymise or remove personally identifying material in posts.

When individuals have successfully forced forum operators to remove content they have done so by proving they are the poster/copyright owner and issuing the host with a DCMA. Hosts are normally fairly compliant, leaving the forum operator to fight it out with the original poster. They cave because they don’t want to fight the original DCMA.

Longer term I expect things will get more complicated. Some countries are starting to challenge the accepted norms about how ostensibly online businesses manage and distribute the information we post or provide to them. Right now the focus is on companies like Google and Facebook, but increasingly governments and specifically the EU are looking to make it easier for individuals to reclaim their digital footprint and challenge the original terms and conditions they signed up to.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... I am a little surprised that they didn't focus group this a little...

Well, think of this thread as a focus group. And what have we learned so far? That there are those who support it and will subscribe and then there are those who won't. What a surprising revelation!

[David Mantripp]

I think I'd be feeling a little upset if I had just paid $150 for a video subscription, but since nobody is shouting, maybe they got refunds.

I've been around here since close to day 1. Early on I learnt a lot from the articles, and I've tried to contribute back over the years with various purchases. So, I'd say generally speaking $12pa should not be a barrier to entry. But I am going to add my voice to those saying that things are going to have to change on the content front. For a start, please, no more endless recycling of Alain Briot's self-serving preaching and eye-watering photography. Also, no more workshop advertorials - do the authors pay for these, by the way? Use the income to commission quality articles by good writers, with topics that appeal to the more advanced level of photographer that tend to frequent this site. Also, I'm afraid I agree that Kevin is no substitute for Michael. Sorry Kevin, really, but Michael's combination of wit, authority and knowledge is probably the main reason people came here. He's now a top asset for your income generation, use him well. Personally I think if you can raise the bar, you can also fix the problem that you've set the price way too low - saying your content is only worth $1 per montb might be sending the wrong message.

Oh, and keep the forum free - this is critical, imho. Best of luck...

[AlterEgo]

This is quite an interesting area. For a number of years now most forums have operated on a relatively simple basis. You as the poster own the copyright but in signing up you grant the operator a pretty generous license to use and potentially transfer the content.

where did I consent for my posting (the text of my posting) to be sold to others ?

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[digitaldog]

Well, think of this thread as a focus group. And what have we learned so far? That there are those who support it and will subscribe and then there are those who won't. What a surprising revelation!

Absolutely! Further, to assume the LuLa gang didn't talk to some people might be a major assumption.

[amolitor]

Focus groups do quite a bit more than confirm the obvious, if they're well done.

[Alan Smallbone]

Well after wasting part of my life running through all the comments in this thread, it was about exactly what I figured it would be. Been here for 11 years and my interest and what I get out of the site follow along the lines of the ruts of my life, more interest in the peaks and less in the valleys. I will be here, see how things work out. I can almost guarantee that it will work itself out to a happy median, I really doubt the gloom and doom will hold true, and I doubt they will become overnight super earners. I am not overtly fond of subscriptions, but with the more modern aspects of life it is becoming more and more popular. It is not the amount but the fact that all these subscriptions eventually add up to a much larger chunk of money and it becomes harder to manage them but this is mostly a curse of being more curmudgeonly.    As far as subscriptions go the cost is reasonable but it will be interesting to see what the big plans are, at least there is enthusiasm for change and I do hope that the site is not so large as to resist changes for the better. Since I have been here since 2004 and mostly lurk but try to add content when I think it will be useful, it will be interesting to see what the future holds.

Alan

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Focus groups do quite a bit more than confirm the obvious, if they're well done.

For that you'd have to engage a professional market research company. And that costs money (a lot). Which would make the subscription higher.

[amolitor]

Actually the thread is providing, almost certainly, the opposite of information.

Industry standard conversion rates are single digit percentages, and this thread gives the impression of a much much higher conversion rate. For obvious reasons.

And yes, Slobodan, I propose (and have proposed elsewhere, several times) that Michael, Kevin, and Chris take some books out of the library and recreate themselves as a professional market research company, offering services both to themselves and to the photography industry. LuLa is not the only web site in a position to do this, but nobody seems to be stepping up.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

...And yes, Slobodan, I propose (and have proposed elsewhere, several times) that Michael, Kevin, and Chris take some books out of the library and recreate themselves as a professional market research company, offering services both to themselves and to the photography industry...

I am sure that a bunch of good photographers and videographers are dying to transform themselves into a boring professional market research company.

[amolitor]

Well, virtually all of these places regularly write articles complaining about the industry and making proposals based on not very much for how the industry could do better. If we are to believe these pieces, the authors are actively interested in helping.

I can understand if they only want to do the fun parts: writing controversial articles, flying around to talk to executives, that sort of thing. I like the fun parts more myself. But if you actually want to make a difference, there is a more productive path, that, regrettably, involves labor that is less jolly.

[wtlloyd]

Jeez, you guys sold out cheap! I woulda paid a lot more...say $2 a month!
In addition, very much looking forward to the "sweeping of the barnyard" effect this will provide.
Bye Bye, permanently disgruntled!

[amolitor]

It's interesting how everyone seems to have their own list of people they despise, and are looking forward to seeing their hated enemies washed away by the righteousness of $12. This is promising to be a beautiful new chapter of togetherness.

[pikme]

I've been reading (though rarely participating in) this site and forums for a very long time.  At a time when most photography sites have gotten stale or the owners/writers seem to have lost interest, I think Kevin Raber has been a breath of fresh air and enthusiasm for this site.  In particular, Kevin's contribution has opened the site in subtle but important ways, as it somehow feels more inclusive now, less like a boys' club. Having said that, of course I have always liked and still much enjoy Michael's contributions, too.

And for the record, I actually like the workshop 'advertorials'.  They permit me to vicariously participate in trips that I could never afford.  I also like the toy shop videos, the blooper, the Fuji and Olympus camera videos, etc.  I like that fewer of the articles are gear oriented tests now, and more about the actual experience of photography. I am looking forward to an emphasis on prints.  My only complaint about content is that I want more of it - more from Michael and Kevin rather than guests, including more recaps (and photos from) both Kevin's and Michael's frequent trips.

I'm relieved that the price to join will only be $12 a year.  Making the site member supported does have risks, as each of us will be confronted each year with the question of whether we are getting value from the site.  In my own experience, whether that was newspapers, magazines, or paid review/photography sites, I've let all my memberships lapse over time.  As readers/supporters, it is inevitable that our standards become higher once we start paying, regardless of the actual cost.  We don't like being taken for granted and we don't like feeling like we are not the actual target audience, two situations e.g. where I might continue to come to a free site but will not continue to pay for a member site.

[daws]

Valid point Eduardo, a lot of the LL life-force comes from the Forums which is built with free, contributor generated content, but if they are locked behind that paywall, where are new members going to come from? I've been thinking about this, and looking at my own online habits. I have a bookmarked list of photographic sites I visit, LL is just one of many, all free. The editorial content is going to need a quantum boost. Maybe a content deal with Reid Reviews will be there to surprise us. Someone in this thread observed that new LL content used to as exciting as a new James Bond movie and that is true! But my reality is that I probably haven't read right through any LL editorial for a long time.

The paywall model where viewing is free but participation costs may keep the thing alive. The forums are a touch "clubby" as it is, and the proposed model may entrench that even more deeply with a shrunken pool. I've only just watched the video, and never seen the usually confident and smooth flowing MR & KR look so darn uncomfortable.

$12 a year is nothing to me and represents agreeable value, but this step is very high risk and that shows 3D in MR and KR's body language in the video. The LL content is fine but hardly gold-standard. The crunch will come at renewal time next year. Good luck guys, I sincerely hope your planned moves and upgrades are enough to pull this off.

-pw

That pretty much says it for me.

Here and on other sites, I rarely watch videos for instruction (professionally produced film documentaries and college lecture videos being the exception). The "data transfer rate" is simply too slow, the repeat-access too cumbersome. I prefer reading text and studying accompanying illustrations, in formats where the information can be accessed quickly and randomly, and text-based searches can be accomplished. Video blogs, or "articles" that consist of two guys sitting and talking about stuff, are a frustrating time-waster for me.

I respect the site's management decision and truly wish Michael and Kevin the very best.

[Otto Phocus]

Otto,  What you don't see is how often we do ban users either temporarily or permanently.  We hope that the Forum stays civil and we'll be watching it carefully. Chris send lots of PM to certain posters letting them know they step over the line.

Granted.

But on the other hand, what I do see is the same people making the same personal attacks and nothing seems to happen to them.   It seems to be the same group of people that bring some of these threads down to an unacceptable level.

But taking action against a now paying customer is one of the more unpleasant aspects of this site "going pro" by charging people. Turning away money for the betterment of your other paying customers is a difficult problem to have to deal with. But I feel it is an important problem and one that may have a significant influence on maintaining your now paying customer base.

Best of luck on this.

[Joe Towner]

To cross post my thoughts from the MF/LF thread:

While I see direct value in the original content being created by the LuLa team, there are issues that need to be addressed.  I found LuLa due to the forums, and the role they have in the community.  Read this article as to how StackOverflow overtook ExpertExchange in the IT/Dev environment: http://www.inc.com/alex-moazed/how-this-engineer-turned-his-blog-into-a-400-million-business.html  Their #1 platform take away is to 'Don't put up paywalls on content platforms with large amounts of user-generated content'.

The forums are a peer to peer platform that are lightly managed, where answers are from subject matter experts (or what ever we are calling ourselves today).  Yes, there is a cost to infrastructure, but putting it behind a paywall is the wrong answer.  The forums need consistent participation from unpaid people, otherwise the page views don't happen, and the overall site becomes stagnant.  Yes, the same question gets asked over and over, so there is an opportunity to create content directly for that market.

While I can afford the $12, I'd rather that be an optional token that allows folks to see that I am personally invested in the LuLa community.  Getting a large enough commitment to make this a viable alternative shouldn't be too hard, but I would suggest doing that first before going full paywall on folks.

-Joe