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Author Topic: Medium format for beginner  (Read 7752 times)

gavincato

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Re: Medium format for beginner
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2015, 02:16:47 am »

I don't agree the 645z is a minor jump over 35mm - in my experience it's a substantial jump. Sure I'd love a full sized phase one but the 645z packs a punch.

Once you have a 645z there are some great lenses without spending a fortune. For example the older 35mm/3.5 A lens, full electronic with metering except manual focus - and incredibly sharp even wide open let alone at f11-16. It's a great piece of glass and you can get a mint copy for 500-600. It makes a mockery of my much newer canon wides.


Christoph B.

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Re: Medium format for beginner
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2015, 03:57:40 am »

32.8 mm x  43.8mm isn't a huge jump. That's just about 1.6-1.7 to full frame 35mm - so it's like the difference between APS-C and full frame.

Sure, it's different but not by much.
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Ken R

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Re: Medium format for beginner
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2015, 04:00:07 am »

If you are looking for more resolution for landscape then you won't be satisfied with anything less than a phase 60 or 80mp back with tech camera lenses. The medium format SLR setups still offer lots of detail potential but start to get closer to what the best 35mm systems offer nowadays specially with longer lenses.

A medium format system is much more than just getting more resolution. In the case of phase one and hasselblad it is more about working with a larger sensor (the 60 and 80mp ones, and all that entails), the versatility of being able to remove the back and use it in a tech camera, awesome tethering workflow, software integration (this is significant) and service and support. The Pentax 645Z is awesome but high quality lens selection is limited specially in the wide angle range although the 28-45mm zoom is quite recent and good but expensive. Used lenses are cheap (same with older Mamiya 645 / Phase One lenses) though.
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Endeavour

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Re: Medium format for beginner
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2015, 09:31:36 am »

thank you all for your comments, they have helped.

I think I would like to go for an option which is upgradable as I go along. So I'd be looking at a digital back system rather than a 'fixed' setup like the Pentax 645z?
I already have highend canon dslrs, I'll be keeping my 1dx for sports & wildlife (well basically anything which moves) but am prepared to spend a lot of time getting to know a MF setup and workflow (including manual focusing)

So I am looking for a options for upgradable (and available) backs, body and lenses? of course I am considering all of this to be used equipment now. I'm going to go visit some photography shots in toronto and see what's about

do you generally buy a good camera and then upgrade the backs as you progress?
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Joe Towner

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Re: Medium format for beginner
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2015, 02:04:39 pm »

Reconsider what you call upgrade-ability, as there are no new Hasselblad V mount bodies or lenses, but with the new CFV-50c or the IQ250/260/280, the V platform is very much alive and viable.   The advantage of the 645z is the lower initial cost with the latest CMOS chip.  It is weather sealed unlike any other line of medium format gear.  It comes down to what is a deal breaker for you when it comes to photography.  If strobes aren't part of what you'll be using, even the Contax stuff is viable, though more difficult to come by.

The Hasselblad H platform is great, as they're all newer lens designs, with better coatings, but are leaf shutter only.  The DF/DF+ body are evolutions of the much older Mamiya 645 bodies, while the XF is brand spanking new in every way and a huge leap forward.

The big investment in MF is in the backs - and while you can swap them around, most folks only have one.  Upgrading them is possible, but you'll most likely purchase a newer body with a newer back.  The investment in lenses is what you'd be looking to preserve, not an investment in the body.  For example, the XF doesn't work with P+ backs, so at some point more money will be involved.

32.8 mm x  43.8mm isn't a huge jump. That's just about 1.6-1.7 to full frame 35mm - so it's like the difference between APS-C and full frame.

Sure, it's different but not by much.

It's a lot different - plus you shift from a 2:3 to a 3:4 ratio.  How the 50mp Sony handles mid & high-iso is leaps beyond 35mm stuff (removing the A7s).
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Christoph B.

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Re: Medium format for beginner
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2015, 05:07:37 am »

It's a lot different - plus you shift from a 2:3 to a 3:4 ratio.  How the 50mp Sony handles mid & high-iso is leaps beyond 35mm stuff (removing the A7s).

Hmm yes, that's true, the 3:4 aspect ratio really does make a difference if you're otherwise forced to crop your photos, and the sensor is very advanced - however I still think the difference between a full frame 35mm and rather small MF sensor isn't that huge and if you're investing ±10.000$ you would really expect a big difference.
But I see your point and you are correct - the aspect ratio really does change a lot!

Yes, the XF is really advanced (and might I add - very beautiful too) but honestly I doubt the differences between the DF+ and the XF will greatly impact your photography style or anything else. The only problems I've encountered were with the AF system on the DF+, otherwise it's a perfectly fine camera with all the necessary features.

Sure, if you want to use a P+ back with an XF camera you're out of luck. But I really doubt that a beginner would consider spending another 10.000$ just to get a back for a camera he might now even want to purchase in the foreseeable future.
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torger

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Re: Medium format for beginner
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2015, 07:09:35 am »

With the budget at hand we're looking at an old Hassy or an old DF+. I'd choose the earlier for sure but it depends on what deals you can get. Here in Sweden you can get quite attractive deals on second hand Hassy gear, less often so with Phase One gear.

If you're only in it for the image quality the risk of disappointment is fairly large as you won't get the latest and greatest, and the latest and greatest 135 has come quite far. MFD lenses are excellent of course. I'm personally not fond of the non-round out of focus bokeh highlights of stopped down apertures though, but that's about the only thing that's not top notch. What can be disappointing is sensor performance, resolution, noise, ISO performance. Always make sure to use native software Phocus for Hassy and Capture One for Phase One, that can make a pretty large difference, mostly thanks to finely tuned noise reduction and good color profiles. I'm not that fond of Phase One colors, I think Hassy is better but that's a matter of taste. I make my own profiles regardless (using DCamProf) so that does not really matter, but that's me.

To be happy you should be into the handling and format as well I think. I like the ergonomics of the Hassy, nice large viewfinder. If you can make creative use of the fast leaf shutters that is a huge plus as that's a unique feature of these systems.

The reason I am myself using MF is only partly image quality, the major reason is the tech camera (a Linhof Techno) which gives me a "large format" workflow for creating images with lens movements. I have a H4D-50, but I have only occasionally used the body as for all hand-held "serious" work my Canon suits better. Instead I use the back on my tech cam. Had I been interested in flash photography I'm sure I would have played around with the possibilities the leaf shutter gives me though, so it's very personal.
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Endeavour

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Re: Medium format for beginner
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2015, 08:39:16 am »

great thanks

I'm going to try and go and visit a shop at the weekend and have a chat, but is there a Hasselblad / back combo you would suggest? So I can start sniffing around the used section and ebay etc - just to get some idea of availability and cost

I appreciate any suggestion is going to be subjective based on your preferences, so dont worry I'm not going to come back in 2 months crying that you told me to get something which isnt suitable for me ;)

ideally I will be slinging the kit in a good backpack and heading off into the wilderness - then hopefully doubling up as a bit of portraiture (with studio lights/strobes) as a VERY secondary consideration.
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torger

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Re: Medium format for beginner
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2015, 09:17:28 am »

As a tech cam user I'm biased towards backs that works well on tech cams should you go down that path later. So H3DII-39 or H3DII-50 with an 80/2.8 lens would be something I'd look for and I think it should fit your budget. You need to use an external battery if used on tech cams, but it's not a big issue, I do that myself with my H4D-50. The 39 and 50 is 49x37mm sensors, a size I like very much and was the high end size for a while, but now it's on the way out, the future holds only 44x33 and 54x41 it seems. So if you go for that, be prepared that you may need to change format size if you upgrade, you probably will want 54x41 then in order to not "downgrade" the size.

If you're a high DR guy, you need at least the Dalsa 6um sensor and then Hassy is not a good budget choice as you need to get into H4D-60 at least to get that. Instead a Aptus-II 8 is probably the cheapest you can get there, but a P40+ is easier to find, those are 44x33mm sensors. At base ISO the H3DII-39 and H3DII-50 should match or even exceed your 1DX though as Canon is not known for high DR.
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Endeavour

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Re: Medium format for beginner
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2015, 11:46:55 am »

so having a bit of a sniff around, I'm seeing it may be possible to pick up a Hassy 500 cm quite cheaply, with a 50mm f4 Zeiss Distagon C lens.
would this be suitable? I guess its all down the choice of back? I really dont mind using an 'old/manual' body but I am a little confused as to which back to go for.

The H series does seem aesthetically more pleasing than the V, but lenses seem to be much more expensive? I dont think I am ever going to be shooting film.


so the 500cm + 50mm is very cheap, but will obviously need a digital back to with it.
or there is a H3Dii-31 for $4500 - but will need a lens.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 12:01:08 pm by lotusEsp »
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torger

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Re: Medium format for beginner
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2015, 12:45:02 pm »

The CFV backs looks best on the Hassy, but they're also a bit expensive compared to alternative on the second hand market as the V system is popular among enthusiasts. A CFV-50 back can cost more than a complete H3D-II 50 with 80mm lens. However additional lenses on the H system can be expensive as you've noted, also on the second hand market as the lenses are current.

CFV-39 or CFV-50 would be the preferred choices, or even the CFV-50c, but price/performance can be quite poor on the second hand market. V-mount P45+ is also usually quite expensive. The cheapest is probably if you manage to find an old and ugly CF-39 (which can be both V and H mount), it's the same sensor and the image quality should be the same as the CFV-39, but it's older and should be quite cheap. Hard to find though. It may be a bit larger risk with such old hardware, but I know people than run CF-22 today with no issues, except the clock battery which means you need to set the clock each time you start a shooting session.

Due to the difficulties in getting a cheap and good CFV back, I think it may be better to still go for an H system. If you can live with only the 80mm lens to start with you should be able to find a decently priced package.
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jng

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Re: Medium format for beginner
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2015, 10:00:14 pm »

Since the back will probably be the costliest part of your investment, at least initially, I might start there and then choose a body + lens system that suits your needs and works within your budget while allowing a reasonable path to upgrade or expand the range of lenses (as noted by others on this forum, upgrading digital backs is generally a losing proposition from a financial point of view). Both the V- and H-series Hasselblads would seem to work under this strategy, with the V system showing a performance/cost advantage in the lenses.

If you ultimately decide to go with the V system, I would be careful about which lenses you choose. In general they perform very well, but you may find some (e.g., the older 50mm C that you mentioned) to be a bit soft at the edges and corners depending on the resolution and size of the sensor they are mated to. On the other hand, many are cheap enough that you can always sell them at minimal to no loss if you're not happy with their performance.

John
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Miyata610

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Re: Medium format for beginner
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2015, 02:09:05 am »

A C lens will be optically very good. They come with or without a T* coating, the ones without will have a lovely flare (if you like that sort of thing).

A CF will always have the T* coating.
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Chris Livsey

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Re: Medium format for beginner
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2015, 02:37:56 am »

And if you like the C, or indeed the CF look and lens price, you can use them on the H body with the converter, loosing autofocus of course, but maintaining metering.

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eronald

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Re: Medium format for beginner
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2015, 09:00:30 am »

Pentax has the 645Z which has liveview and is cheap  - $6995 at B&H
Hassy has the 50 Cmos back for V

Those are the only CMOS cheap choices. These are modern tech, with better screens and liveview which allows exact focus.  They also come with full warranties.

I don't think Phase has a cheap entry level CMOS model. I would expect that when they have stopped waiting for Pentax/Ricoh and Hassy to go broke they will introduce one.

Phase and Hassy dealers will have some used/refurb offers for their older CCD lines. In Hassy terms these are called CPO.
Here is a UK price list, which shows the prices for used gear.
Some older Pentax 645D cameras are floating around the used market.

http://procentre.co.uk/sales-secondhand-medium-format-digital.php

All current digital backs are built to last forever, but minor maintenance eg. glass fllter or flash contact replacement, or column recalibration can cost as much as a mirroless SLR. If you buy used, test well before you buy.

Edmund
« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 09:10:00 am by eronald »
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Theodoros

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Re: Medium format for beginner
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2015, 05:08:58 pm »

I wonder... how many times the same "beginner" question has been asked? ...is it ten, is it 100, or is it 1000 times? ...I believe if the O/P "googles" the same question, he'll get just the same posts as he got here given to others before for very the same question...  ;)
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Endeavour

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Re: Medium format for beginner
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2015, 05:39:25 pm »

I wonder... how many times the same "beginner" question has been asked? ...is it ten, is it 100, or is it 1000 times? ...I believe if the O/P "googles" the same question, he'll get just the same posts as he got here given to others before for very the same question...  ;)

Perhaps

or perhaps new members have joined and have valuable opinions? Or the used markets have shifted , new options opened up etc etc

The internet isnt just a record, where you document one view-point or comment once and it should be referred to forever :)
very helpful and friendly discussion forums like this would die very quickly if that were the case.
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Theodoros

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Re: Medium format for beginner
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2015, 05:58:43 pm »

Perhaps

or perhaps new members have joined and have valuable opinions? Or the used markets have shifted , new options opened up etc etc

The internet isnt just a record, where you document one view-point or comment once and it should be referred to forever :)
very helpful and friendly discussion forums like this would die very quickly if that were the case.

The answer is still not "Perhaps"... it is rather "Yes! ...the "same" "opinion variations" will be read as "answers"...  and yes! forum members do discuss the subjects over and over again yet retaining the same answers for the same questions... and yes! ...forums are fading out because of it! ...it used to be different here some YEARS ago...
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Endeavour

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Re: Medium format for beginner
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2015, 06:43:47 pm »

oh ok
I'm sorry for asking, I'll leave you guys to it.

Thanks for the helpful replies, I'll go and continue my search :)
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Theodoros

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Re: Medium format for beginner
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2015, 07:22:16 pm »

oh ok
I'm sorry for asking, I'll leave you guys to it.

Thanks for the helpful replies, I'll go and continue my search :)

Which ones are the "helpful" replies that where a "first" to you? (I mean the ones that are different suggestions to what there is already available if "googling" the same Q?) ...Is there any? My "observation" doesn't aim to have you feel "guilty for asking" (its rather the opposite)... It's just an observation of what the  reality is.....

With MF you have the following "opinions": (that I'm sure you won't read in web),
1. People who think that MF is higher res...
2. People who think that MF is whatever is larger sensor than FF...
3. People who think that MF is for landscaes
4. People who think that MF is for other than landscapes,
5. People who think that is different...
6. People who think  that it's not different...
7. People who think that it is an "idea"...
8. People who think it is about modularity...
9. People who think that it is about being "funboy of firms"...
10. People who think it is about "spending more is better"...
11. People who think that "the bigger you have it, the better you do it"...
12. People who think that they are doing photography when taking pictures...

....(I'm supersticious so I'll jump to 100...)

100... people that think it's a way to show off in forums...

So there you are... MF has different marketing, it has different looks, but its bigger problem is that people (or makers) can't agree what it is... So it all comes down for YOU decide where to fit... MY fit (MO)... is stick with the "traditional" which is "MF is not to replace FF", MF is both MF & LF these days and MF has nothing to do with being a makers victim... The choices of MF equipment then depends on what you do... Personally, what provides bread to my family's table is art repro... So I stick with equipment being a decade old that performs MUCH better than any "modern"... So I guess that for an answer to suit you, you first have to decide where you fit in the 100+ above list and then trust what the ones in the same ranking suggest...

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