Topic: Medium format for beginner (Read 7760 times)

Endeavour · « **on:** November 23, 2015, 02:26:06 pm »

Hi
I am a long time 35mm shooter (film & digital) and I am interested in making the switch to medium format. I've found myself getting frustrated with the resolution/detailed offered by my existing 35mm/fullframe DSLR and really want to step up my quality of shots.

I am interested 80% in landscape and 20% portraiture. Blessed with living in Canada, I want to take advantage of the awesome landscape available.

I know I'm being restrictive here, but for the sake of argument let's say I wanted a single lens setup for landscape (perhaps investing in more glass for other subjects depending on how I get on) What is the minimum I would need to get going?

Would anyone be able to advise on the kit I would need?
am I looking at a min cost of $10,000 (CAD) to just get started?
I'd rather not go back down the film route if possible, but I wouldn't totally dismiss it either.

It is something I want to be taking seriously, rather than just messing about.

any thoughts/advice would be gratefully received, particularly any suggestions on what equipment to go look at

Cheers

Christoph B. · « **Reply #1 on:** November 23, 2015, 03:15:12 pm »

I was in the same situation about a month ago, I found a P1 camera and back for a bargain at a local camera shop and went for it (after getting a lot of useful info from the people here in the forum).

Are you thinking of buying used second hand equipment or new stuff with warranty?

If you're going with second hand stuff there are a lot of options for ±10.000 CAD, with new equipment not so much..

I think it's going to be very hard to give any specific advice on a kit - but if you're really mainly doing landscape photography you might want to consider looking for a P45+ back. Although they aren't full frame MF backs they are very close (lens factor of 1.1) and they offer a very good quality during long exposures and it has a quite high resolution of 39MP and an excellent image quality up to ISO200.

You probably won't have the luxury of choosing which camera mount the back is going to have if you're buying second hand (after all medium format backs are quite rare on the 2nd hand market)...

Endeavour · « **Reply #2 on:** November 23, 2015, 03:30:47 pm »

Thanks for the reply

Yes, ideally I would like to buy used. Right now I cant just drop 10k on a body

ddolde · « **Reply #3 on:** November 23, 2015, 03:31:29 pm »

Pretty easy choice. Pentax 645Z

torger · « **Reply #4 on:** November 23, 2015, 03:39:20 pm »

$10k CAD is about $7.5K USD, which won't get you anything if you buy new.

The 135 systems are at 40-50 megapixels now and I assume you want better than that. Lens quality, especially in the wide end, is better in MF so it's not only about megapixels. I think an A7r-II with the best 35mm lenses would be the minimum standard to compare to.

If you would only do landscape I'd recommend looking into tech cams, but as you want to do portraits too that may not be a too good idea. The Pentax 645z seems to be the most reasonable way to go.

If it would only be landscape I'd look into something like a second hand P65+ with Arca-Swiss Universalis and Kapture Group sliding back and a Rodie 40mm, and expand on that (it would be like $20K though?). I know many can't stand ground glass focusing though, and if you can't you need a more expensive system if you go the tech cam way.

torger · « **Reply #5 on:** November 23, 2015, 03:49:47 pm »

If you really need to stay on a low budget and even the 645z is too expensive, you will have to go with lower resolution backs and then you will have to search in terms of color and lens rendering to see any improvements, as much, maybe even resolution, will be worse than the best 135.

I would then pick up a second hand Hassy, those can often be had quite cheap. I'd look for say a H3Dii-39 with an 80mm lens.

Theodoros · « **Reply #6 on:** November 23, 2015, 04:31:58 pm »

Quote from: lotusEsp on November 23, 2015, 02:26:06 pm

Hi
I am a long time 35mm shooter (film & digital) and I am interested in making the switch to medium format. I've found myself getting frustrated with the resolution/detailed offered by my existing 35mm/fullframe DSLR and really want to step up my quality of shots.

I am interested 80% in landscape and 20% portraiture. Blessed with living in Canada, I want to take advantage of the awesome landscape available.

I know I'm being restrictive here, but for the sake of argument let's say I wanted a single lens setup for landscape (perhaps investing in more glass for other subjects depending on how I get on) What is the minimum I would need to get going?

Would anyone be able to advise on the kit I would need?
am I looking at a min cost of $10,000 (CAD) to just get started?
I'd rather not go back down the film route if possible, but I wouldn't totally dismiss it either.

It is something I want to be taking seriously, rather than just messing about.

any thoughts/advice would be gratefully received, particularly any suggestions on what equipment to go look at

Cheers

I think you have the right approach on the subject... Based on what your requirements are, I conclude that you want a low budget solution that you'll be able to advance step by step through the years... I also think that it's right if you seek for a solution that has the alternative of using film, my suggestion would be to opt for a Hasselblad H1/H2/H2F/H4x so that you will have an open platform to work with and look for the 35mm lens to accompany it with... As for back, I would highly suggest an old 22mp Kodak sensor back to marry it with, but a 33mp Dalsa sensor or 39mp Kodak sensor back will also do...

I would recommend the Contax 645 platform instead (with the same backs), but prices are high and keep rising. OTOH, the lenses of C645 cost much less than they should (but the 80mm f2 lens which is in very high demand), so if you don't need the focal length (which you most possibly don't for landscapes) you may as well consider spending a bit more on the body and save considerably on the lenses.... Now I think about it, a combination of c645 body, 35 & 45-90 zoom and an Imacon 132c should both keep your budget low and provide a system that would provide high results satisfaction as well as keep you in contact with more tasks than landscape for a long time... Mind you that with the Contax, you'll be able to also use Hasselblad V lenses on it via an inexpensive adapter and if you add a P65+ back on it sometime in the future, you won't need to go for a wider angle lens and the quality of the prints should be breath taking... Also mind that the 45-90mm Zeiss vario Sonnar zoom lens is surprisingly easy to hand hold and of "single focal length quality".

Christoph B. · « **Reply #7 on:** November 23, 2015, 04:41:03 pm »

I don't think the 645Z will be a huge step forward.

Doug pretty much summed it up here: http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=95848.msg783082#msg783082

Pentax does have a rather limited lens selection - and the sensor isn't much bigger than 35mm, no leaf shutter lenses (should you ever need one) and it can't be used with a tech cam...
And it's much harder to clean the sensor! That's a fact often overlooked - it is very easy to clean the sensor of a removable back but it's much harder to clean the sensor of a DSLR-type camera. And while most camera stores are happy to clean your full frame DSLR they won't clean a medium format camera, at least not where I'm from.

The H3DII 39 may be a good choice for photography in general, but for landscape photography you probably won't be thrilled by it's long exposure performance - if I remember correctly you can't expose longer than 64 seconds and the quality of long exposures isn't too good.
The P45+ is a much better choice for landscape photography on a budget and if you don't plan on doing any long exposures the P65+ is also a good choice with a bigger sensor and a huge resolution (but also a higher price tag).

dwood · « **Reply #8 on:** November 23, 2015, 04:46:05 pm »

I don't shoot MFD but if I was interested in getting into a system with your budget, the Pentax 645Z seems like a pretty good choice (used). And here's something you might consider: LensAuthority has a used 645Z which I'm guessing may have come out of LensRental stock. It's priced at $5,250 USD. Two days from now, they begin their annual Black Friday sale, and everything they have available is an additional 10% off. If I've done my math right, that's $4,725. Pick up a lens or two that meets your needs and away you go. BTW, I have no affiliation with LensAuthority - just passing on some info. Good luck with your search.

Miyata610 · « **Reply #9 on:** November 23, 2015, 04:55:31 pm »

I'm happy with my old Hasselblad bodies, 503CX and 553ELX. I recently added a 22MP Phase One H25 back for $900. I like that it has a bigger sensor than the current crop of cheaper backs at 37mm X 49mm.

V series bodies and lenses can be had for only a few hundred dollars each.

Carrying a MacBook Pro is no big deal. I'll soon be experimenting with a MacBook Air to reduce weight.

Theodoros · « **Reply #10 on:** November 23, 2015, 05:28:33 pm »

Quote from: Miyata610 on November 23, 2015, 04:55:31 pm

I'm happy with my old Hasselblad bodies, 503CX and 553ELX. I recently added a 22MP Phase One H25 back for $900. I like that it has a bigger sensor than the current crop of cheaper backs at 37mm X 49mm.

V series bodies and lenses can be had for only a few hundred dollars each.

Carrying a MacBook Pro is no big deal. I'll soon be experimenting with a MacBook Air to reduce weight.

Hasselblad V also crossed my mind to suggest... (of course - how could it be different?), but I have a feeling that the 40mm widest focal length for it may prove more restring than what one would require for landscapes... especially if the budget for the back is limited....

OTOH, the Pentax 645 Z that many suggest, I have a feeling it would be more suited to other kinds of photography (like weddings for instance or other low light that a DSLR would also do well enough...). For landscapes and other "traditional MF photography", I would stick with the looks of a good old MFDB.... especially the looks of a "fat pixel" one...

Joe Towner · « **Reply #11 on:** November 23, 2015, 05:41:04 pm »

Honestly, you can grab a 645D for ~$3k, and a few A lenses and be done for less than $6k.

Can you focus manually or are you dependent on live view or auto-focus?

What 35mm gear do you currently have, and where is it letting you down?

There are lots of different options, and while you may discount film, there are things like the GX617 that only exist in film.

Will you be carrying this many klicks or many meters?

Christoph B. · « **Reply #12 on:** November 23, 2015, 05:45:37 pm »

Quote from: Joe Towner on November 23, 2015, 05:41:04 pm

There are lots of different options, and while you may discount film, there are things like the GX617 that only exist in film.

Well..not quite http://www.roundshot.com/xml_1/internet/en/application/d77/d122/f123.cfm

heinrichvoelkel · « **Reply #13 on:** November 23, 2015, 07:08:56 pm »

Quote from: Christoph_B on November 23, 2015, 05:45:37 pm

Well..not quite http://www.roundshot.com/xml_1/internet/en/application/d77/d122/f123.cfm

Not to rain on your parade, but the Roundshot is a scanback. If you want to know what you can do with a one shot solution in the panoramic format, check out Josef Koudelka or Carl de Keyzer.

Theodoros · « **Reply #14 on:** November 23, 2015, 07:45:13 pm »

I would suggest that if a conversation on Seitz is to be started, of it to be on a new dedicated thread as I would be glad to participate (being a frequent user of a 220VR), but would prefer not to disturb the O/P requirement... Otherwise, I've stared a thread on revolutionary cameras here: http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?board=3.0 and we are exactly at the point where I suggested the 220vr...

alatreille · « **Reply #15 on:** November 23, 2015, 09:07:09 pm »

Here's a couple of examples of the Pentax 645z shot with the new 28-45mm @ 28mm.

Whilst not traditional 'landscape' images, they are landscapes of a sort. Both just ready for final retouching, so there's a bit of polishing ready.

I love this camera, and have been shooting it alongside the others on every job the last 6 months. If I could have lenses with movements on it, I'm not sure how much use the Canon or the Arca + Credo set would have. There is an ease of use (UI) with Pentax cameras and the files are lovely to work with - malleable is the correct word I thi
I have the 28-45 on loan from Pentax. The 35/75&120 are all stunning lenses (IMO) on this camera (as they are on the canon 5dsr up with a shift adapter)

I think it all depends on how you want to work.

Joe Towner · « **Reply #16 on:** November 23, 2015, 11:15:10 pm »

The only downside to the Pentax is the cost of the 28-45mm - it's more than half the total budget. Don't get me wrong - I love what it gives me, and there is no peer in medium format (it's got VR!!).

There are a few leaf lenses available, but they're used and manual focus. But unlike Hasselblad & Phase, you can get TTL speedlights for the Pentax, and shoot HSS at 1/4000th of a second. Priolite also does strobes that will give you 1000w/s at any shutter speed on the 645z.

There are a thousand ways to skin this - generally speaking I'd say grab a Bronica if you want to just shoot film. If you want to add in digital later, grab a Hasselblad V series - there are existing backs that work now, and you have a great future even if it's limited to the current CFV-50c. Yes, you can get into a used PhaseOne kit with a lens or two for under $10k.

But without any shooting experience, I'd suggest finding either another shooter or a dealer local to you whom can help you gain experience. It's all about what trade offs you are make to create an image.

-Joe

jng · « **Reply #17 on:** November 24, 2015, 12:52:51 am »

I resurrected my old Hassy V system a year or so ago by moving to a digital back. An advantage of the V system is that there's a pretty robust second hand market and you can probably assemble a nice kit within your budget if you stick with one of the older Hasselblad or P-series Phase One backs (I didn't, but that's a whole 'nother story). Chosen carefully, the V system Zeiss lenses perform quite well on the digital sensors, and can be had for a reasonable price, too (US$500-1000 for a good specimen in the "CF" series, depending on the lens and excluding the more exotic 40mm IF or Superachromats). There are two potential caveats, however. First, getting all the pieces to play nice together may require a visit to the shop to align the mirror and focusing screen - digital is in general less forgiving than film when it comes to focus accuracy, and cosmetically "mint" bodies can be significantly out of alignment. Second, you will need some patience and/or good eyes to get your images in sharp focus, at least initially. After years of using auto-focusing DSLRs, manual focusing on a ground glass was a skill I was forced to re-learn. But the results are worth the extra effort, in my opinion. YMMV, of course...

John

Franzl · « **Reply #18 on:** November 24, 2015, 12:56:24 am »

I would go with a P45+ and a 645df system. As the XF came out there are plenty sold right now or you can even start with the 645af. You should more think about which system you like and than go down that route as you will be stacked with that system for years. Wouldn't like to work with Pentax for years. Contax and a phase system is also quite cool. And H-Series should be cheap to get to. Don't be fixated about the MP, it is not the only thing that makes DMF awesome.

Christoph B. · « **Reply #19 on:** November 24, 2015, 01:44:37 am »

Quote from: heinrichvoelkel on November 23, 2015, 07:08:56 pm

Not to rain on your parade, but the Roundshot is a scanback. If you want to know what you can do with a one shot solution in the panoramic format, check out Josef Koudelka or Carl de Keyzer.

No worries, not raining on anyones parade - of course it's a scan back. However it is a digital 6x17 cam.

Author Topic: Medium format for beginner (Read 7760 times)

ddolde