Paris attacks in perspective

[tom b]

Hey, the Paris attacks have been sensational.

Millions have been killed by the allies, Britain, France, Russia, America, etc. Nobody gives a damn!

Cheers,

[john beardsworth]

Hey, the Paris attacks have been sensational.

Millions have been killed by the allies, Britain, France, Russia, America, etc. Nobody gives a damn!

Cheers,

No, no-one gives a damn because your comparison is simply sick, and your grasp of history is just half-baked. Give up drinking, mate.

[Diego Pigozzo]

Hey, the Paris attacks have been sensational.

Millions have been killed by the allies, Britain, France, Russia, America, etc. Nobody gives a damn!

Cheers,

Again, I still don't understand if this means we should care more about "non-western" deads or that we should care less about western deads.

[Alan Klein]

Bart.  Paris and the Russian jet incidents may not be attacks on Western enlightenment.   It could just be one side returning attacks made by the other side.   That usually happens in war.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Bart.  Paris and the Russian jet incidents may not be attacks on Western enlightenment.   It could just be one side returning attacks made by the other side.   That usually happens in war.

Hi Alan,

If I'm to believe the former Major General Frank van Kappen of the Netherlands Marine Corps (who also acts in his current role as commentator after his retirement from the military), a-symmetric warfare is a common tactic when an army (IS in this case) is incurring losses caused by material superiority of their opponent. Take the guerilla battle to the streets of the opponent, in order to weaken public support (it's more a morale thing than creating real casualties).

Remember, we are dealing with the military elite of the former Iraqi government, in their new role. They are clever people with warped ideologies. That's why it will also be brought to the USA, to undermine public support for the actions against them in the Syria/Iraq region.

Cheers,
Bart

[john beardsworth]

Bart, I think you are going off topic - though whether the original topic has any value....

There is a big difference not just in the role of the ex-Iraqi military, but also in the ideology. While there appears to be involvement for reasons such as you suggest, pan Arabist Baathism was very different from the Islamist agenda. Secondly, Isis has until now been distinguished from other Islamist terrorism by its focus on establishing a viable geographical state and on not attacking the "far enemy". It fell out with Al Qaeda precisely because of this emphasis on the local concern of overthrowing Sikes Picot borders (see Fisk's article). My reading, influenced by the work of Jason Burke, is that the Paris attacks do not appear at all consistent with the ex-Baathist leadership, but are probably more a case of ISIS's European adherents reverting to more AQ style methods. These individuals' objectives may well be as you describe, but I think it's a mistake to confuse their actions with the role of ex-Iraqis.

John

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

The Paris attacks do not appear at all consistent with the ex-Baathist leadership, but are probably more a case of their European adherents reverting to more AQ style methods.

John, I see it differently. Also look at the timing (with military precision), a few weeks before French elections where a weak President François Hollande (who didn't handle the economic/banking crisis well at all) is potentially going to lose a lot of power to right-wing Nationalists (Marine le Pen) that play the anti-Islam agenda. Social unrest may result, an unlikely climate for prolonging military intervention but likely to create more local social unrest.

The coming American elections will also be a significant timing exercise for IS, to get the candidate elected that will do worst for US international relations, thus isolating the USA from support in the international arena. Classic divide and conquer ...

Do not underestimate the people that are heading IS, they know what it takes to run a dictatorship in the international arena (getting around sanctions is a way of life, they still sell oil/gas/minerals/food produce/etc. and buy weapons and fund recrutement). Recrutement of easy to influence marginalized locals (e.g. in Belgium, and in the Paris suburbs, but also in other countries) is for them just another part of the war effort as they see it. These guys were trained in Syria on the use of weapons, and making bombs from household components that do not draw the attention from the authorities until it is too late.

Cheers,
Bart

[john beardsworth]

But concern about French/US elections is as much evidence of European/AQ-influenced views on what the conflict in Syria/Iraq is, and those are contrary to the raison d'etre and the track record of IS. It's been specifically about local concerns, not about attacking the far enemy. As with Al Qaeda, it's too easy to see a leadership or guiding organisation where there is really something more like a movement or range of ideas.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

But concern about French/US elections is as much evidence of European/AQ-influenced views on what the conflict in Syria/Iraq is, and those are contrary to the raison d'etre and the track record of IS. It's been specifically about local concerns, not about attacking the far enemy. As with Al Qaeda, it's too easy to see a leadership or guiding organisation where there is really something more like a movement or range of ideas.

ISIS is nothing like Al Qaeda, they are very much more efficient in using the internet and other modern techniques. As the quote Wikipedia article says, "Islamic State (IS), is a Wahhabi/Salafi jihadist extremist militant group. It is led by and mainly composed of Sunni Arabs from Iraq and Syria." The former Iraq Ba'ath party leadership was also much more aggressive than their Syrian 'fellows', that's why they (when they fled Iraq) started in Syria. Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi (a born Iraqi) is the leader of their self-proclaimed caliphate.

Cheers,
Bart

[john beardsworth]

ISIS is nothing like Al Qaeda, they are very much more efficient in using the internet and other modern techniques. As the quote Wikipedia article says, "Islamic State (IS), is a Wahhabi/Salafi jihadist extremist militant group. It is led by and mainly composed of Sunni Arabs from Iraq and Syria." The former Iraq Ba'ath party leadership was also much more aggressive than their Syrian 'fellows', that's why they (when they fled Iraq) started in Syria.

Cheers,
Bart

Use of the internet really isn't a distinction. AQ's propaganda was of its day, after 2001 it was fragmented and forced underground, while in 2015 IS can operate openly from cities in a more highly developed region than Waziristan. The idea that the Iraqi leadership has fled Iraq is also doubtful since Mosul and other major cities, some close to Baghdad, are were firmly under their control.

Both groups are indeed Wahabi/ Salafi. Beyond that, yes, IS is different from Al Qaeda, and that is exactly my argument. Rather than portraying this as the ex-Iraqi leadership switching to tactics contrary to their raison d'etre and track record, it's probably better to see Paris as their foreign adherents adopting AQ-style behaviour.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Use of the internet really isn't a distinction.

Again, don't underestimate them. They publish a magazine, they take active part in fora, they use mosques and shopping malls in the Western countries to debate with and pick up new potential followers, they lead protest marches in democratic western countries, etc., all focused at recrutement, and successfully so. A whole different approach.

Cheers,
Bart

[john beardsworth]

I'm not underestimating anyone, just showing how it's bogus to say use of the internet is a distinction between the two (it's merely the difference between an underground orgn in Waziristan post 2001 and a pseudo state in urban M East 2015) or the IS leadership having fled Iraq, which they haven't. AQ also had a magazine, Inspire, so that's no different, and those who used to support AQ also had demos, protests and recruitment. I actually photographed one guy (a Mohammed Hamid) doing so at London's Speakers Corner c2006 and later recognised him when he was convicted of recruiting people to go to Syria and was nicknamed Osama Bin London in the press (FWIW at the time I thought he was a nice, engaging personality). What you're still doing is confusing IS, a group with an explicit local track record and raison d'etre, with foreigners who bought into that franchise but have added their AQ behaviour.

[tom b]

Hey, I just wanted to make you think!

The Allies won WWII, how many Muslims have died due to their polices since.

Cheers,

[LesPalenik]

Hey, I just wanted to make you think!

The Allies won WWII, how many Muslims have died due to their polices since.

Cheers,

I don't have answer to your question, but over 100,000 people die annually just in USA due to prescribed medications. Going back to WWII, those losses would add up to more than 6 million. And that includes all denominations.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

I don't have answer to your question, but over 100,000 people die annually just in USA due to prescribed medications. Going back to WWII, those losses would add up to more than 6 million. And that includes all denominations.

Oh, no, Les, what have you done!? Now Tom is going to segue to his favorite subject: bashing the U.S. health care system

[john beardsworth]

Hey, I just wanted to make you think!

The Allies won WWII, how many Muslims have died due to their polices since.

Shame on you for not having done so first.

Keep beating yourself up, mate. I just read that humans wiped out the Neanderthals. 100%. Puts the "Paris attacks" in perpective, eh? /irony

[Diego Pigozzo]

Hey, I just wanted to make you think!

The Allies won WWII, how many Muslims have died due to their polices since.

Cheers,

I think I still don't understand if this means we should care more about "non-western" deads or that we should care less about western deads.

[Justinr]

Shame on you for not having done so first.

Keep beating yourself up, mate. I just read that humans wiped out the Neanderthals. 100%. Puts the "Paris attacks" in perpective, eh? /irony

Talking of which the Neanderthals were German.* Had it coming to 'em huh!


*First discovered in the Neandertal valley.

[john beardsworth]

Talking of which the Neanderthals were German,* had it coming to 'em huh!
*First discovered in the Neandertal valley.

The last ones are thought to have been in southern Spain so if we play Tom's game and discount a few facts they might have been the Muslims of Andalus who were persecuted and driven out in the 15th century. Puts the "Paris attacks" into perspective. Made you think, eh? No?

[Justinr]

The last ones are thought to have been in southern Spain so if we play Tom's game and discount a few facts they might have been the Muslims of Andalus who were persecuted and driven out in the 15th century. Puts the "Paris attacks" into perspective. Made you think, eh? No?

You are all playing a game.