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Author Topic: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe  (Read 22370 times)

bjanes

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2015, 11:07:49 am »

Like many others, I am sure, my initial reaction was, "How dare an ignorant, arrogant, empty-headed, big-mouthed nobody like Thom purport to assume what or whom I do or do not trust! (Expletive deleted) him!!"

Having adopted a slightly less injured mindset and having read what he wrote, I think he draws unsubstantiated conclusions from a very limited example. Perhaps if he had suggested that he had discovered a minor flaw in Adobe's set-up, rather than making ludicrous claims about nobody trusting them, his words might have received the more limited attention they possibly deserved.

I wouldn't characterize Thom Hogan as a nobody. He has a following in the Nikon world that includes me. He was a protege of the late Galen Rowell.

I have several of his e-books on Nikon equipment and have found them authoritative and very helpful. That said, he does tend to be rather opinionated and negativistic at times.
His setup is somewhat unusual in that he apparently has two versions of Photoshop installed on the same computer: PS6 and PS CC. That can lead to trouble if the updaters do not clearly differentiate the two versions. He may keep the perpetual version installed as a backup for the time he bails out from CC, not trusting Adobe to do the right thing.

I do have a copy of CS6, but deactivated and uninstalled it from my system when I began using CS CC and have had no problems whatsoever. I see no need to have two versions of PS. Perhaps Adobe will prevent re-installation and reactivation of PS6 at some time in the future, but I think that possibility is remote but maybe Thom is prepared for that possibility.

Bill
« Last Edit: November 16, 2015, 11:14:53 am by bjanes »
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D Fosse

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2015, 11:15:02 am »

Bill, I think it's the opposite - he has CS6 as subscription. It was offered as subscription in the beginning, before CC (2013). In which case that message in the CC updater makes perfect sense and I don't understand what the problem is.

I don't have CS6 installed at all, but I do get new updates for CC (2013) and CC 2014 all the time, both of which I do have along with CC 2015.

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digitaldog

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2015, 12:33:29 pm »

Bill, I think it's the opposite - he has CS6 as subscription. It was offered as subscription in the beginning, before CC (2013). In which case that message in the CC updater makes perfect sense and I don't understand what the problem is.
I think you nailed it. I have CC and CS6 (perpetual license) installed on the same machine so that CS6 is my backup/exit plan if necessary. No issues as Thom describes. I can't understand why anyone would be using CS6 subscription with CC and suspect that's a main issue; CS6 'wants' to be updated. If indeed that's the case, Jeff nailed it as well. Now if Thom has CS6 perpetual, I can't explain his issue, it has never occurred on this end.
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rdonson

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #23 on: November 16, 2015, 03:47:40 pm »

I have the CC photo combo (PS & Lr) along with a PS6 perpetual license I bought before being seduced by CC.  I have experienced the same thing Thom reports on my 4 machines.  I'm not alone either.  Many friends have experienced it as well.  Adobe provides a list of ways to overcome the issue with updating PS6 from CC but I've not been successful with any of them yet.  In reality I gave up trying to update PS 6 perpetual as a waste of mine time. 

IMHO Adobe is way too focused on mobile.  I understand they think that's the future for them but perhaps they've spread their resources too thin and forgotten the rest of us.  While its true that a gazillion photos are taken and uploaded every day from smartphones I don't think but a handful will be hanging in galleries 10 years from now.
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Ann JS

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2015, 10:41:08 pm »

If Thom gets a message that "Photoshop has been moved" it is very possible that he copied an existing installation from one machine to another rather than doing a fresh installation?

I wonder how many machines he might be using the same copy of CS6 Perpetual on simultaneously?
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rdonson

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2015, 10:06:47 am »

If Thom gets a message that "Photoshop has been moved" it is very possible that he copied an existing installation from one machine to another rather than doing a fresh installation?

I wonder how many machines he might be using the same copy of CS6 Perpetual on simultaneously?

I can't speak for Thom.  I can tell you that in my cases CS6 perpetual licenses are compliant with Adobe licensing.  They run on 2 machines, typically an iMac and a MacBook Pro. 

What Thom reports is NOT a user induced error.  Adobe has a problem.
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2015, 10:16:49 am »

Jeremy, this is a good question. I agree with you completely on a couple of points - I do believe they want us to succeed using their software; that's what keeps them in business and as long as their security protocols are robust and up to date our credit card information should be safe with them, and no I don't expect to see charges on my Visa card from rogue employees even if they had any.

But that isn't the whole story of "trust" - it's a broader concept. Perhaps expectations are higher than they should be in some quarters, but people - I believe - generally expect to have a relatively seamless experience up-grading their software, knowing what they are up-grading from-to, understanding the differences and implications between various purchase options available to them (because it has become a bit more challenging to understand than it used to be - but not by that much), and being able to use the software pretty much as they had been - or if features are changing, adequate notice and instruction about how to deal with what's new. If they feel let-down on stuff like this, they become wary, uncertain and uncomfortable, and that impairs "trust" very broadly conceived, as in: "can I trust what I'm into with this software"?

Mark, you're obviously right. People expect a lot from software. To a very large extent, they get a lot, too: I consider Lightroom, for example, to be probably the most impressive piece of software I've used in some 40 years of working with computers.

In the old days (ah, the good old days) computers were difficult to use, unforgiving of mistakes. People who installed software had to understand what they were doing: how to use make, whether they had the correct libraries, whether their search paths were correctly set up and so on. Tech support people, some of whom at least partially understood the issues, were vital.

Now, expectations are different. There's an expectation that an update will run smoothly and that the result will be an improvement. To a very large extent, those expectations are met. Lr, for example, has improved enormously. But sometimes, things go wrong; and people then get irritated. And angry. And blame the software provider.

They may be right. But the fact that Hogan's update went wrong doesn't mean that there's an egregious error which warrants the ludicrous overreaction of "never trusting Adobe again" or the ridiculously hyperbolic "nobody trusts Adobe": the paucity of complaints suggests that for the vast majority of people, it went well. Maybe Hogan did something wrong. Maybe there's something sufficiently non-standard about his setup which results in the installer's failing, because perhaps it's so non-standard that it never occurred to the programmers that it might ever happen. Some comments above suggest that the last possibility may be right.

I don't know Thom Hogan from Adam, so I won't argue with Jeff about whether or not he knows how to use software; however in a way that's not the key issue. More importantly, from all the stuff I've been reading, other seemingly intelligent people are getting confused (e.g. about versions, upgrades, LR import dialog), and if that's happening it implies that the Company may have at least some communications issues to address. Different people have different levels of comfort and agility with software as it takes its twists and turns, and the developers need to address a fairly broad spectrum. I don't see any of this as a train-smash, and we've read that Adobe is fixing-up certain things. I wouldn't read much more into this. All companies make mistakes - we all do - the more responsible ones will fix them and move on, as perhaps we should!  :-)

Quite. It's a mistake. If you find malicious code embedded in your (non-pirated) version of PS, then get upset. If your money is stolen by the company, get upset. But if software doesn't work, be irritated, if you must, kick the cat and devote some attention to finding out why and fixing it.

Perhaps the lesson is that it's a mistake to assume that everything in an update will work exactly as expected. Some things require effort and understanding.

Jeremy
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2015, 10:19:01 am »

Fair enough Jeremy.
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rdonson

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2015, 11:52:43 am »

Jeremy, is it possible that many are dismissing the problem because they haven't experienced it themselves?  Blaming the users isn't a great strategy for success.
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digitaldog

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2015, 12:02:54 pm »

Jeremy, is it possible that many are dismissing the problem because they haven't experienced it themselves?
Was it people dismissing the problem or dismissing Thom's title for his 'rant'? I haven't experienced what Thom reports. But I don't doubt it's a real issue for him and a few others. Doesn't dismiss Thom's soap box rant suggesting nobody trusts Adobe.
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rdonson

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2015, 12:23:12 pm »

Thom's title was provocative and hyperbolic for sure.  Quite likely a link bait tactic as well.

Trust should be hard earned and easily questioned.  It should be given sparingly to corporations with a profit motive and extremely rare for politicians and governments.

« Last Edit: November 17, 2015, 12:48:25 pm by rdonson »
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2015, 01:09:30 pm »

Jeremy, is it possible that many are dismissing the problem because they haven't experienced it themselves?  Blaming the users isn't a great strategy for success.

Of course: it's not only possible, it's highly likely. But that at least implies that for most people, there isn't a problem; and that implies that the programmers have got it pretty much right. Naturally, perfect would be better than pretty much right; but as the old dictum goes, all non-trivial programs have bugs (and it is a sufficient condition for program triviality that it have no bugs).

It's always frustrating when things don't go well, but it doesn't necessarily imply a systemic failure, as Hogan seemed to be suggesting it did.

Jeremy
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2015, 04:44:54 pm »

You think you have download update problems. Check out this recent one...

http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=105498.0
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2015, 05:09:17 pm »

You think you have download update problems. Check out this recent one...

http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=105498.0
So Thom Hogan is not the only one complaining about Adobe.  Looks like some of the complainers on the LuLa thread are badmouthing Mr. Hogan.  I posted the start of this thread only because it seemed to be interesting.  Of course I should have realized that some folks would go after the author of the comment.  I can only say that Thom Hogan's reviews of Nikon equipment and his manuals are first rate.  He is also a very talented photographer as evidenced by the many images he posts.  I know he uses Adobe products as he references them quite often.

It probably would have been better not to have posted in this in the first place.  Live and learn I guess.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2015, 05:36:10 pm »

So Thom Hogan is not the only one complaining about Adobe.  Looks like some of the complainers on the LuLa thread are badmouthing Mr. Hogan.  I posted the start of this thread only because it seemed to be interesting.  Of course I should have realized that some folks would go after the author of the comment.  I can only say that Thom Hogan's reviews of Nikon equipment and his manuals are first rate.  He is also a very talented photographer as evidenced by the many images he posts.  I know he uses Adobe products as he references them quite often.

It probably would have been better not to have posted in this in the first place.  Live and learn I guess.

No, I think you started an interesting and useful discussion about management issues in Adobe that judging from the LR update experience seem to be genuine.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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rdonson

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2015, 05:49:17 pm »

Of course: it's not only possible, it's highly likely. But that at least implies that for most people, there isn't a problem; and that implies that the programmers have got it pretty much right. Naturally, perfect would be better than pretty much right; but as the old dictum goes, all non-trivial programs have bugs (and it is a sufficient condition for program triviality that it have no bugs).

It's always frustrating when things don't go well, but it doesn't necessarily imply a systemic failure, as Hogan seemed to be suggesting it did.

Jeremy

I understand what you're saying, Jeremy.  I even developed software professionally for a number of years.

The potential for a systemic error is in the design and testing methodologies not just in the coding.  Another perfect recent example is the new Lr Import which has now been regressed.
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digitaldog

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2015, 06:28:00 pm »


So Thom Hogan is not the only one complaining about Adobe.
Of course not. Thom and all Adobe customers are entitled to complain. That's not really what Thom did. As I pointed out, he spoke for everyone. So I'm ding'ing him a point just for that, silly action. Then he brings in trust which is different from complaining. It's pretty obvious Thom needs to stir controversy and add rhetoric to drive folks to his blog. I'm ding'ing him 2 points for that. If his blog title was:
Why many are upset with Adobe, or Why many are unhappy or pissed about the upgrade process, fine! Instead he has to flame.
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Of course I should have realized that some folks would go after the author of the comment.
Comment or ridiculous title created to get attention which worked! He got yours. He had mine but now I know what blog to avoid now, thanks.
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I can only say that Thom Hogan's reviews of Nikon equipment and his manuals are first rate.

They may be but he established for me, I suspect a few other's here, to put a grain of salt towards whatever he writes.
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It probably would have been better not to have posted in this in the first place.
Well no, now I can prejudge whatever he might write in the future thanks to his recent and unnecessary rhetoric. So you did Thom no favors but you did for me!
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chez

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2015, 08:17:00 pm »

Thom's title was provocative and hyperbolic for sure.  Quite likely a link bait tactic as well.

Trust should be hard earned and easily questioned.  It should be given sparingly to corporations with a profit motive and extremely rare for politicians and governments.

What about individuals that are profit motivated? Do you like making a profit from a job? I know I do or I would not be able to exist...sort of like those big gready corporations.
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digitaldog

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2015, 08:33:07 pm »

What about individuals that are profit motivated?
I've got no issues with profits. Got issues with folks using FUD to direct people to their sites just as I have issues with politicians using fear to get elected. It's not necessary. It's not appropriate.
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chez

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2015, 09:28:43 pm »

I've got no issues with profits. Got issues with folks using FUD to direct people to their sites just as I have issues with politicians using fear to get elected. It's not necessary. It's not appropriate.

Andy, totally agree with you. The quote I replied to basically stated because a company is profit oriented, you should be very weary of them and not trust them. This is just crap as I'm sure the professional photographers here take on jobs to bring home some profit.
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