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Author Topic: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe  (Read 22371 times)

Alan Goldhammer

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Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« on: November 15, 2015, 11:49:52 am »

http://www.dslrbodies.com/accessories/software-for-nikon-dslrs/software-news/why-nobody-trusts-adobe.html from Thom Hogan.  It might be funny were it not for the issues it raises.
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D Fosse

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2015, 12:25:59 pm »

What's the problem, specifically?

That clearly reads "CS6 for Creative Cloud", there's no confusion there. Yes, CS6 was offered as subscription before CC and if that's how it was installed, it's still part of the CC subscription. I still get updates for CC (2013) and CC 2014.

This is not the same as CS6 perpetual license. No further updates there. That CS6 perpetual will be phased out soon should really come as no surprise, and that Adobe "wants us" to move to subscription even less of a surprise.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2015, 12:31:52 pm »

Nobody? Other than millions of us using it every day? And admiring how far we've come, not small part thanks to Adobe?

Mark D Segal

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2015, 12:35:20 pm »

Well, what to say - this, composited on top of the LR 6.2 Import dialog debacle may rattle some nerves. Adobe clearly has some QC/QA issues to tidy up, as well as to rewind the stuff the community has been clamouring about with LR. All that said, I think it's a bit much to say "Nobody Trusts Adobe". I keep my image-editing life simple by ONLY using the two CC apps in the Photo bundle. So there isn't CS6 to confuse it with. Why would I need it? As well, what really matters most (at least to me) is image editing capability and quality, and LR's Develop Module only get better with every up-date. I also appreciate the fairly seamless integration with Photoshop, and the Print module. In fact, I have little need for Photoshop any longer, which is great for saving on file versions and storage. So I for one shall carry on trusting Adobe for what they do well, and hope they soon get their act together on where they have erred. I think they've endured some bruising wake-up calls and they'd be extraordinarily obtuse to ignore it all or treat it as a one-off accident. Time will tell, but let us maintain perspective.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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digitaldog

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2015, 01:05:20 pm »

I didn't read past the title which proposes to speak for everyone (Nobody trusts Adobe). A sure sign the piece should be ignored.
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2015, 02:05:11 pm »

I didn't read past the title which proposes to speak for everyone (Nobody trusts Adobe). A sure sign the piece should be ignored.

You missed nothing. It's incoherent.

Jeremy
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Jimbo57

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2015, 02:15:21 pm »

More to the point, does anyone trust Hogan?
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2015, 03:08:44 pm »

While Alan's title for this thread is hype borrowed from the link, most likely done to make a point and not to be taken literally, the material comes from Thom Hogan, who isn't exactly a nobody (read his bio). Once you get beyond the title and carefully read the content of his post and the experience he had, it raises questions - the first one being whether this is a random glitch of some kind that doesn't deserve the attention he's creating. He claims not, saying many others have experienced the same thing. So perhaps there is a problem that needs to be fixed. For the record, I do have much respect for Adobe - where would we be in digital imaging without the brilliant people they employ delivering us such incredibly powerful software, and the commercial decisions they have made over the years for it to be marketable and viable, thereby sustaining it. But recently there have been a series of confusing issues, e.g. - over program versions, version numbering, feature differences between alternative license arrangements and the underlying approach to them, the LR Import Dialog issue, at the heart of which improved communications and additional bullet-proofing seems indicated. I wouldn't read much more than that into any of this. Problems occur, they can be fixed. 
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Bob Rockefeller

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2015, 03:23:30 pm »

And hopefully the problems can be fixed quickly and course corrections made.

Because Lightroom has become "the only game in town," if you are looking for solid DAM and RAW adjustment in the same application.

Aperture is dead, Photos is a LONG, LONG way from challenging Lightroom to get better, and Capture One just hasn't (yet) gotten its DAM act together. Competition is good for users and Lightroom has little, or none.
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Bob Rockefeller
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digitaldog

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2015, 04:25:21 pm »


While Alan's title for this thread is hype borrowed from the link, most likely done to make a point and not to be taken literally, the material comes from Thom Hogan, who isn't exactly a nobody (read his bio).
I don't know Thom from a hole in the wall, his bio doesn't change the title of his blog post which is rather silly and doesn't do much to convince me he has no agenda using it.

Quote
Once you get beyond the title and carefully read the content of his post and the experience he had, it raises questions - the first one being whether this is a random glitch of some kind that doesn't deserve the attention he's creating.
Again, he fails at the title, I'm not going past it and news alert, Adobe products, updaters, like most software products, contains bugs.
There's plenty of areas Adobe can be legitimately criticized for (like your example of the Import debacle), I really don't think this deserves the attention it's getting. Maybe Thom needs to generate more traffic and hence the title? 
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digitaldog

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2015, 04:43:11 pm »

While Alan's title for this thread is hype borrowed from the link, most likely done to make a point and not to be taken literally, the material comes from Thom Hogan, who isn't exactly a nobody (read his bio).
OK, I did. IS there a bit of Ben Carson/Al Gore here? I don't know. And it's really not important but I will point out Thom states (only one example):
Quote
Designed the first consumer digital camera (QuickCam; Thom was Business Unit Manager).
OK. I googled QuickCam, seems to be a web cam?:
Quote
QuickCam is a line of webcam video camera products by Logitech.


The original QuickCam was developed by Connectix in 1994 for nationwide commercial sale and was the first widely marketed webcam-like device, although its original advertising did not use the term "webcam" or refer to the World Wide Web, then in its infancy.
Fine. Wikipedia states:
Quote
The first digital camera of any kind ever sold commercially was possibly the MegaVision Tessera in 1987 [22] though there is not extensive documentation of its sale known. The first portable digital camera that was actually marketed commercially was sold in December 1989 in Japan, the DS-X by Fuji[23] The first commercially available portable digital camera in the United States was the Dycam Model 1, first shipped in November 1990.[24] It was originally a commercial failure because it was black and white, low in resolution, and cost nearly $1,000 (about $2000 in 2014).[25] It later saw modest success when it was re-sold as the Logitech Fotoman in 1992. It used a CCD image sensor, stored pictures digitally, and connected directly to a computer for download.[26][27][28]


The move to digital formats was helped by the formation of the first JPEG and MPEG standards in 1988, which allowed image and video files to be compressed for storage. The first consumer camera with a liquid crystal display on the back was the Casio QV-10 developed by a team led by Hiroyuki Suetaka in 1995
Did I invent the Beep When Done option in Photoshop? I suggested an audible alert to Adobe as a beta due to how long operations took in the early 1990's on huge 20MB files at the time (IIci, 8MB of RAM). One would commonly need to walk away from the computer knowing an operation could take 10 minutes to complete (seriously).


No, I think I'll refrain from such credit, it's possible Adobe had it planned before the thought came into my head.  ;D
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jrp

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2015, 04:59:57 pm »

Nobody? Other than millions of us using it every day? And admiring how far we've come, not small part thanks to Adobe?

With the emphasis on small part.  For most of the time, Adobe was only the distributor of Photoshop, the product being developed under contract by a self-employed person.  It is only because of the idiosyncrasies of the funding of the US healthcare system that forced the contractor to become an employee.

Now that Adobe relies on a quasi-software as a service model, you'd have thought that they would invest a bit more effort in making the distribution platform more robust and user-friendly.  If you count the number of recent releases of Photoshop / Lightroom where there were problems or the confounding of expectations (deleting old versions of Photoshop, without migrating the plug-ins, without making it clear at the outset that that was what was about to happen, removing features of Lightroom without any advance indication, etc, etc) you might think that Adobe was not doing a great distribution job. My default now is to wait a week or two before installing updates so that other guinea pigs can test the water.  This should not be the case for software as a service. Thom's experience is just another instance of a problem with the distribution infrastructure.  The suspicion that they are doing things for their convenience or to drive you onto the subscription model, rather than doing things that are of value to you, undermines trust in the brand, as Thom points out.

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Rory

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2015, 05:28:16 pm »

You trust Adobe?  Really?
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2015, 06:38:51 pm »

...the material comes from Thom Hogan, who isn't exactly a nobody (read his bio). Once you get beyond the title and carefully read the content of his post and the experience he had, it raises questions...

I "carefully read" what Thom wrote as he instructs (and I had to read it several times BTW) and now see his point and agree with Mark's points. From what I gleamed from the article is that confusion and doubt is created by the way, where & how Adobe labels version numbers to distinguish between Photoshop CS6 and CC updates before and after an actual update. (i.e. CC version: 2015.0.1 and 20150772.r.168x64 vs regular CS6 version: 13.0.6x64).

But then if he's paying a subscription for Photoshop CC2015 (updated version now at 13.1.2) why would he need updating of CS6 since there is no longer any more updates for that version? Or is the confusion created when Adobe sees the newly updated CC2015 as the newest version of Photoshop that is no longer part of CS6 but now updating the number overrides the older version. There's no clear indication that newly updated CC2015 trumps the older CS6. Maybe Adobe should start including "CC" in the version number once it overrides the older CS6. Now I'm confused!

The corruption warning is the first I've seen in any Adobe update download prior to CS6 (I have CS5) and the inconsistency of the message "Photoshop Has Moved" didn't happen on his laptop doesn't make it easier to sort out the source of the problem.

The more complicated it is getting to update already complex digital image processing and management software with all its non-transparent layered facets, directories and methods of OS integration through internet download and update managers, the more its getting harder to distinguish between real problems and their source (Adobe server?, firewalls? bad ram? failing hard drive?) vs F.U.D.
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Schewe

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2015, 01:09:17 am »

What's the problem, specifically?

Thom doesn't know how to use software....that's what I got out of his rant.
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tom b

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2015, 02:18:54 am »

As a longtime user of Adobe products they have been great for educational users. Having retired I volunteered and I thought that they would have the same approach for non profit organisations. Maybe in the US but elsewhere you have to pay full price. Hey, if I'm willing to give my services for free to help a charity Adobe should be in on the process. It wouldn't cost a cent for Adobe to to help non profit organisations!

Cheers,
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2015, 04:09:57 am »

You trust Adobe?  Really?

Oh, for God's sake. We're not in an intimate relationship: I buy software from them. I believe that they won't write code that destroys my images and I don't imagine they'll use their limited access to my credit card for malicious purposes. To that extent, yes, I trust the company. Other than that, what's trust got to do with it?

Jeremy
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2015, 08:46:47 am »

Oh, for God's sake. We're not in an intimate relationship: I buy software from them. I believe that they won't write code that destroys my images and I don't imagine they'll use their limited access to my credit card for malicious purposes. To that extent, yes, I trust the company. Other than that, what's trust got to do with it?

Jeremy

Jeremy, this is a good question. I agree with you completely on a couple of points - I do believe they want us to succeed using their software; that's what keeps them in business and as long as their security protocols are robust and up to date our credit card information should be safe with them, and no I don't expect to see charges on my Visa card from rogue employees even if they had any.

But that isn't the whole story of "trust" - it's a broader concept. Perhaps expectations are higher than they should be in some quarters, but people - I believe - generally expect to have a relatively seamless experience up-grading their software, knowing what they are up-grading from-to, understanding the differences and implications between various purchase options available to them (because it has become a bit more challenging to understand than it used to be - but not by that much), and being able to use the software pretty much as they had been - or if features are changing, adequate notice and instruction about how to deal with what's new. If they feel let-down on stuff like this, they become wary, uncertain and uncomfortable, and that impairs "trust" very broadly conceived, as in: "can I trust what I'm into with this software"?

I don't know Thom Hogan from Adam, so I won't argue with Jeff about whether or not he knows how to use software; however in a way that's not the key issue. More importantly, from all the stuff I've been reading, other seemingly intelligent people are getting confused (e.g. about versions, upgrades, LR import dialog), and if that's happening it implies that the Company may have at least some communications issues to address. Different people have different levels of comfort and agility with software as it takes its twists and turns, and the developers need to address a fairly broad spectrum. I don't see any of this as a train-smash, and we've read that Adobe is fixing-up certain things. I wouldn't read much more into this. All companies make mistakes - we all do - the more responsible ones will fix them and move on, as perhaps we should!  :-)
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Jimbo57

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2015, 10:31:47 am »

I suppose that this discussion got off to a very bad start because Alan, in his thread title, quoted direct from the blog to which he linked (and failed to place the offending words in quotation marks).

Like many others, I am sure, my initial reaction was, "How dare an ignorant, arrogant, empty-headed, big-mouthed nobody like Thom purport to assume what or whom I do or do not trust! (Expletive deleted) him!!"

Having adopted a slightly less injured mindset and having read what he wrote, I think he draws unsubstantiated conclusions from a very limited example. Perhaps if he had suggested that he had discovered a minor flaw in Adobe's set-up, rather than making ludicrous claims about nobody trusting them, his words might have received the more limited attention they possibly deserved.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Why Nobody Trusts Adobe
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2015, 10:41:43 am »

"In God we trust...everyone else pays cash" - a sign in a bar.

Sounds like a reasonable approach for software use too. Or, as comrade Stalin used to say: "Trust, but double check." ;)
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