Rodenstock Digaron-W 50mm or Schneider 47mm XL

[Zachary Goulko]

Has anyone compared the Rodenstock Digaron-W 50mm to a Schneider Apo-digitar 47mm XL?
I need a good tech lens in the 50mm range, but I'm having a hard time deciding between the two.
Both claim high resolution down to 5 μm but the Rodie has a smaller image circle and is 3 times the price of the Schneider.

[Paul2660]

Has anyone compared the Rodenstock Digaron-W 50mm to a Schneider Apo-digitar 47mm XL?
I need a good tech lens in the 50mm range, but I'm having a hard time deciding between the two.
Both claim high resolution down to 5 μm but the Rodie has a smaller image circle and is 3 times the price of the Schneider.

Which sensor/camera are you going to use? 

The entire HR-W or now they just use W (blue band) were developed for the IQ180 80MP cameras.  The older pink band HR lenses were the prior ones.  What you can expect from the 50 W, is an excellent lens, that will hold a solid image on shifts up to 20mm.  The IC is 90mm and Rodenstock has a built in indicator to let you know when you are at the edge of IC.  This creates a hard vignette on the upper/lower corners that just gets worse the more you shift the lens.  IMO bad design as all their lenses can go beyond the IC, no point in ruining the entire frame.  With a 90mm IC on a Full frame sensor like the P65+ or IQ180 you will start to see the edge of the indicator right at 16mm, anything past that and it will really start to show.    The 50mm W is a big lens like the 40mm W or HR-W and 32mm  Retrofocus design, so you will have a larger mass in front of the copal shutter.  Most photographers, seem to go with a 40 W and 70W and skip the 50 W.  The 40 W (blue band) is probably one of the overall best lenses on the market and also one of the most versatile.  Also with a 90mm IC.  I would feel that the 50 W would follow very close, but I have not shot one and not read much on them.  It's an expensive lens for sure as B&H has just the lens at 5.3K.  Based on my work with the 43XL and 40mm W, I would feel that the 50mm W is still going to be a bit sharper than the 47mm XL.

The Schneider 47XL is a symmetrical design, smaller, and less weight.  It has a 113mm IC, no indicator so you can easily shift past the edge of the IC.  An older lens, which has a great rep.  Smaller/lighter and on the 60MP full sensors an excellent choice.  With the 80MP sensors, you can possibly see more color cast on shifts, which is the case with the 35XL, and the 43XL.  If are not looking for a lot of shifting, or rise fall, on a 80MP sensor this is a great lens to consider.  Schneider may have a CF for the 47XL as they make for the the 43XL and 60XL, and if you are going to shift a lot the CF will help with light fall off.  Schneider is supposedly out of the business now, but I am sure they will handle warranty work on existing lenses. 

Both lenses can take advantage of e shutters from Arca and other companies as these start to become available in the future.  Copal no longer makes their shutter either.  They quit making them close to 1 year or so ago.  So that market will be forced to move to something else in the future.

It would be helpful to know the camera you are planning to use as each, Alpa, Arca and Cambo have different mounting methods for these lenses. 

Paul C

[vjbelle]

Paul..... you cannot use B&H as a benchmark for Rody pricing.  They REALLY bump up the price.  The Rody 50mm Digaron W Copal 0 can be purchased for around $3800.00 shipped to your door in about 4 business days. 

Victor

[Paul2660]

Paul..... you cannot use B&H as a benchmark for Rody pricing.  They REALLY bump up the price.  The Rody 50mm Digaron W Copal 0 can be purchased for around $3800.00 shipped to your door in about 4 business days. 

Victor

I thought that was a bit steep for that lens. But since no one else shows a list price, I tend to always start with BH. They will never have these types of lenses in stock so the price always reflects special order.

3800 for the lens. Then I guess add 1.2K for a mount? Either Alpa Arca or Cambo? 

Paul C

[Zachary Goulko]

Hi Paul,
Thank you for the long and informative reply.
I will be using the lens on a Cambo Actus with an A7RII, and would never shift past 20mm since that is the limit, and more than I need for shooting still life.
Given that the sensor's pixel size is 4.5 microns I'd like to be able to squeeze as much resolution out of the lens as possible. Unfortunately there's not much info or image samples to be found with this combination, and I haven't been able to find a place in NY where I can rent these lenses to test out for myself.
I'll probably end up going with the Digaron 50mm, since the Digaron 40mm supposedly limits the shifting ability because of the camera grip being in the way, although it would be nice to have a slightly wider lens which I could use for stitching landscapes as well.

Which sensor/camera are you going to use? 

The entire HR-W or now they just use W (blue band) were developed for the IQ180 80MP cameras.  The older pink band HR lenses were the prior ones.  What you can expect from the 50 W, is an excellent lens, that will hold a solid image on shifts up to 20mm.  The IC is 90mm and Rodenstock has a built in indicator to let you know when you are at the edge of IC.  This creates a hard vignette on the upper/lower corners that just gets worse the more you shift the lens.  IMO bad design as all their lenses can go beyond the IC, no point in ruining the entire frame.  With a 90mm IC on a Full frame sensor like the P65+ or IQ180 you will start to see the edge of the indicator right at 16mm, anything past that and it will really start to show.    The 50mm W is a big lens like the 40mm W or HR-W and 32mm  Retrofocus design, so you will have a larger mass in front of the copal shutter.  Most photographers, seem to go with a 40 W and 70W and skip the 50 W.  The 40 W (blue band) is probably one of the overall best lenses on the market and also one of the most versatile.  Also with a 90mm IC.  I would feel that the 50 W would follow very close, but I have not shot one and not read much on them.  It's an expensive lens for sure as B&H has just the lens at 5.3K.  Based on my work with the 43XL and 40mm W, I would feel that the 50mm W is still going to be a bit sharper than the 47mm XL.

The Schneider 47XL is a symmetrical design, smaller, and less weight.  It has a 113mm IC, no indicator so you can easily shift past the edge of the IC.  An older lens, which has a great rep.  Smaller/lighter and on the 60MP full sensors an excellent choice.  With the 80MP sensors, you can possibly see more color cast on shifts, which is the case with the 35XL, and the 43XL.  If are not looking for a lot of shifting, or rise fall, on a 80MP sensor this is a great lens to consider.  Schneider may have a CF for the 47XL as they make for the the 43XL and 60XL, and if you are going to shift a lot the CF will help with light fall off.  Schneider is supposedly out of the business now, but I am sure they will handle warranty work on existing lenses. 

Both lenses can take advantage of e shutters from Arca and other companies as these start to become available in the future.  Copal no longer makes their shutter either.  They quit making them close to 1 year or so ago.  So that market will be forced to move to something else in the future.

It would be helpful to know the camera you are planning to use as each, Alpa, Arca and Cambo have different mounting methods for these lenses. 

Paul C

[vjbelle]

I thought that was a bit steep for that lens. But since no one else shows a list price, I tend to always start with BH. They will never have these types of lenses in stock so the price always reflects special order.

3800 for the lens. Then I guess add 1.2K for a mount? Either Alpa Arca or Cambo? 

Paul C

For Alpa you add $2200.00.  Highway robbery as far as I'm concerned!!  Talk about making a buck......

Victor

[Paul2660]

For Alpa you add $2200.00.  Highway robbery as far as I'm concerned!!  Talk about making a buck......

Victor

+1.   

Paul C

[JohnBrew]

Zachary, have you tried Foto Care for rental? They are in NYC.

[Zachary Goulko]

Yes I called them some time ago, but they didn't have either lens for rent.

Zachary, have you tried Foto Care for rental? They are in NYC.

[yaya]

The 50 is a sharper lens especially when using larger apertures and shifting. It is one of the sharpest lenses around and we use it on our Aerial cameras.
Its retrofocus design means better colour uniformity, more distortion and slightly more chromatic aberration. It is also more prone to flare when shooting into the sun or a strong light source.
The 47 is smaller, lighter with a larger image circle, it does have a more pronounced field curvature but this may not be an issue with the small-ish sensor of the A7.

Hope this helps

Yair

[Doug Peterson]

The 50 is a sharper lens especially when using larger apertures and shifting. It is one of the sharpest lenses around and we use it on our Aerial cameras.
Its retrofocus design means better colour uniformity, more distortion and slightly more chromatic aberration. It is also more prone to flare when shooting into the sun or a strong light source.
The 47 is smaller, lighter with a larger image circle, it does have a more pronounced field curvature but this may not be an issue with the small-ish sensor of the A7.

Hope this helps

Yair

+1. The 50 is the better of the two. One of the best period.

[BobDavid]

Hi Paul,
Thank you for the long and informative reply.
I will be using the lens on a Cambo Actus with an A7RII, and would never shift past 20mm since that is the limit, and more than I need for shooting still life.
Given that the sensor's pixel size is 4.5 microns I'd like to be able to squeeze as much resolution out of the lens as possible. Unfortunately there's not much info or image samples to be found with this combination, and I haven't been able to find a place in NY where I can rent these lenses to test out for myself.
I'll probably end up going with the Digaron 50mm, since the Digaron 40mm supposedly limits the shifting ability because of the camera grip being in the way, although it would be nice to have a slightly wider lens which I could use for stitching landscapes as well.

I use a Rodenstock WA 40 enlarger lens on my Actus. I've designed a workaround. It's not very sexy, but it gets the job done--and it is a flat field lens with negligible distortion and CA.

[Zachary Goulko]

So I picked up a Digaron-W 50mm to use primarily for my still life work when I need to shoot larger items, and have used it for a couple shoots so far.
I'm getting horrible fringing which becomes really apparent when I'm shooting close, 3 feet or closer. Normally "Remove Chromatic Aberration" in ACR handles this with ease, but it's so severe that I have to remove the fringing in post.
Below is a 100% crop shot on the Actus/A7RII combo, shifted around 12mm at edge of the frame.
Wondering if this is an issue with the sensor glass of the A7RII, or is this lens just not designed for semi-macro work.
PS, I get virtually 0 CA with my Apo-Digitar 90mm 4.5, even when shifting all the way to 20mm.

[Rod.Klukas]

So I picked up a Digaron-W 50mm to use primarily for my still life work when I need to shoot larger items, and have used it for a couple shoots so far.
I'm getting horrible fringing which becomes really apparent when I'm shooting close, 3 feet or closer. Normally "Remove Chromatic Aberration" in ACR handles this with ease, but it's so severe that I have to remove the fringing in post.
Below is a 100% crop shot on the Actus/A7RII combo, shifted around 12mm at edge of the frame.
Wondering if this is an issue with the sensor glass of the A7RII, or is this lens just not designed for semi-macro work.
PS, I get virtually 0 CA with my Apo-Digitar 90mm 4.5, even when shifting all the way to 20mm.



Wide angle lenses were never really designed to be used at makro distances.  Even in the days of film people were trying to use them with cameras with limited bellows extension with these same results.  The problem is included in the following:  To be called or named an 'Apo-Chromatic lens', the error for the red component needs to be less than 1/2500th of the focal length.  The focal length for this calculation, is the extension of the lens, not the named focal lens on the barrel.  So the red, especially, really moves from the aberation, as does the focus shift.  All lenses have more or less focus shift.  Stopping down will cover some of it, but then there is diffraction rising as you stop down.

That is why a lens such as a 120mm or 80mm Makro, which is designed to be used in this manner, closeup, are better choices.  They may be quite poor at 20 feet, but around life size plus or minus they are superb.
An enlarging lens can also be a great choice for close-up, but I would try first.
The 40mm Eurygon might be a good one and with a Sony or other DSLR having its own shutter, would be economical.
There are companies who made, and SK Grimes could do a one off, adapters to allow use of an enlarging lens in a shutter.
Hope this helps.
Rod

[Zachary Goulko]

That is why a lens such as a 120mm or 80mm Makro, which is designed to be used in this manner, closeup, are better choices.  They may be quite poor at 20 feet, but around life size plus or minus they are superb.
An enlarging lens can also be a great choice for close-up, but I would try first.
The 40mm Eurygon might be a good one and with a Sony or other DSLR having its own shutter, would be economical.

Hi Rod,
Thanks for chiming in. Unfortunately the 40mm enlarger lens won't have a large enough image circle to give me movements, if any.
So I guess that leaves me with a dedicated macro lens, of which 80mm would be the widest option as far as digital tech lenses go.

[RomanN.]

I am a little bit confused that someone want to use these great Digaron lenses for stilllife or close up work.
Rodenstock write that all Digarons H and W ( retrofocus) should be used between 3 meter till infinity. They are optimated for this distance, espacially when you take the distortion.
32, 40, 50 Digarons W are really the best lenses you can get on this planet for wide angle work at infinity like landscape- architecture and with big movements ( and still great at big movements!).
If you want to get great close up lens than just take the great Componon 60, 80 or 90 mm. you get them for very cheap.
You can get them also for more money labeled as Apo Digitar, I have both, the new digitars have better coating and contrast at wide open but at app. 8 there are no differences. The macro Symmar 80 mm is also a great option...