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Author Topic: Changing color space  (Read 6016 times)

wmchauncey

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Changing color space
« on: November 13, 2015, 07:21:29 am »

Working in PS 2015 in a Windows 7 16 bit environment...during image editing, I have a info palette showing continuously.
Since upgrading to 2015, I've noticed that I occasionally get a automatic, unintended color shift from ProPhoto to sRGB.

There doesn't seem to be any consistent image adjustment that sparks the color space change.
Am able to go back in time using history states but...that is a PITA.

Any suggestions as to what might be causing this SNAFU?
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wmchauncey

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Re: Changing color space
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2015, 12:38:05 pm »

FWIW...it would seem that it only happens when duplicating an image vie Image dropdown>then flatten, then apply HDR Toning.
Image is then automatically converted to sRGB. 
Chatted with customer service and problem was verified...happened on their machines as well.
They promised to get back to me by end of day.
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digitaldog

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Re: Changing color space
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2015, 12:52:00 pm »

We'd need an example of the image to test on our end. I've not seen this.
Keep in mind, moving from ProPhoto RGB to sRGB (Satanic RGB) is like a image sex change operation using a dull kitchen knife.
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wmchauncey

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Re: Changing color space
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2015, 04:53:26 pm »

Hey Andrew...the image seemed irrelevant as the problem repeated itself regardless whether it began as any RAW image from LR
or an existing PSD image from my hard drive and was repeatable at the Adobe customer service using their own images.

Workflow seems to be the key...open any ProPhoto image in PS 2015>flatten if necessary>apply HDR Toning>
voila, you now have a sRGB color space.
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digitaldog

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Re: Changing color space
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2015, 05:22:21 pm »

Other than the HRD stuff, I can't say I've seen this.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Changing color space
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2015, 05:48:58 pm »

Nope, can't replicate (I am on Photoshop CC 2015):

bjanes

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Re: Changing color space
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2015, 06:18:04 pm »

Nope, can't replicate (I am on Photoshop CC 2015):

I'm also on Photoshop CC 2015. After the HDR toning, I end up in whatever color space that is set as the working default color space in PS.

Bill
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wmchauncey

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Re: Changing color space
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2015, 06:45:15 pm »

I only work with CR2 RAW ProPhoto in LR and that is my default in PS, don't do tiff and or dng.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Changing color space
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2015, 07:14:46 pm »

I only work with CR2 RAW ProPhoto in LR and that is my default in PS, don't do tiff and or dng.

Me too.

wmchauncey

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Re: Changing color space
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2015, 08:51:26 pm »

I continually show an info panel that shows efficiency, image size, color space, whatnot...
it is this info that indicates a change in color space.
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bjanes

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Re: Changing color space
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2015, 11:06:47 pm »

I continually show an info panel that shows efficiency, image size, color space, whatnot...
it is this info that indicates a change in color space.

That's how I have my setup also. With PS CC 2015 on both the Mac (10.11.1) and PC (win 10) I can start with a file in sRGB, Adobe RGB, Display Profile, or ProPhotoRGB. When the Render HDR dialog comes up, the space changes to linear 32 bpc as shown below. When the rendering is complete the color space ends up as whatever my default working space is set in the Photoshop preferences. Starting with the display profile I end up in ProPhotoRGB if that is my default. If sRGB is the default, I end up with sRGB. It is really not that complicated and I don't understand the confusion.

Bill
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wmchauncey

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Re: Changing color space
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2015, 05:56:07 am »

Ta Da...found it...my "color settings" were screwed up...set to sRGB rather than ProPhoto.
Thanks guys...ya got me off my dead butt.  I do wonder why Adobe Cust. Service wasn't able to locate the problem.
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D Fosse

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Re: Changing color space
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2015, 08:19:35 am »

Keep in mind, moving from ProPhoto RGB to sRGB (Satanic RGB) is like a image sex change operation using a dull kitchen knife.

That's a colorful analogy...I'll keep that in mind  :o

But Satanic RGB? Why does everybody hate sRGB so much? It serves a purpose and does that extremely well. If sRGB didn't exist, we'd all be in trouble. It's not as if anyone is holding a gun to your head...

Besides, sRGB has a proud history as the seed for modern color management. It was the first attempt at describing and standardizing device RGB. In its own way it was a monumental achievement.

And further, the small gamut isn't what causes bad color. You can produce absolutely stunning color inside sRGB if you set your mind to it. Good color is about relationships, not total gamut volume.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Changing color space
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2015, 10:41:48 am »

...  like a image sex change operation using a dull kitchen knife.

I'll now need a much sharper knife to remove that image from my mind  :D

digitaldog

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Re: Changing color space
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2015, 11:33:00 am »

That's a colorful analogy...I'll keep that in mind  :o

But Satanic RGB? Why does everybody hate sRGB so much?
It's so oversold, and is really only useful for one kind of output. The s (Satanic, Shitty, Small) is an old joke Schewe, Fraser and I would use when talking about it in the old days. So yes, sRGB does have a role, but it's limited and inappropriate for so much work.
And then there's the sRGB nonsense that's been around for far, far too long:
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/adobe-rgb.htm
http://www.garyfong.com/learn/adobe-rgb-vs-srgb
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbzXqqeC5vc
The sRGB debate brings out all the color management morons  :-\
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Simon Garrett

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Re: Changing color space
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2015, 12:17:01 pm »

It's so oversold, and is really only useful for one kind of output. The s (Satanic, Shitty, Small) is an old joke Schewe, Fraser and I would use when talking about it in the old days. So yes, sRGB does have a role, but it's limited and inappropriate for so much work.
And then there's the sRGB nonsense that's been around for far, far too long:
http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/adobe-rgb.htm
http://www.garyfong.com/learn/adobe-rgb-vs-srgb
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbzXqqeC5vc
The sRGB debate brings out all the color management morons  :-\

Wow!  The last one (Will Crockett) has (I think) some grain of truth, though it's so poorly explained that it's hard to be sure.  But Ken Rockwell and Gary Fong are just so hopelessly and mind-boggling wrong that it's hard to credit. 

We all have subject areas that we don't understand, or perhaps understand less than we think we do.  I've found that teaching others often highlights the limits to my own knowledge, and requires me to do a bit of study before speaking or writing about something.  But you need some level of self-doubt and intellectual curiosity to challenge your own knowledge. 

Clearly Mr Rockwell and Mr Fong are troubled by neither self-doubt nor intellectual curiosity. 
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D Fosse

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Re: Changing color space
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2015, 01:01:48 pm »

And then there's the sRGB nonsense that's been around for far, far too long

Ooh, I see what you mean. I read two lines of Ken Rockwell and could read no further, it was just too painful...

I was blissfully unaware that such nonsense was still floating around. Honestly.

(It's not that I work in sRGB or anything. I just see its usefulness in the general overall ecology of computer imagery).
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xpatUSA

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Re: Changing color space
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2015, 02:04:17 pm »

Not taking sides but, as I am not a "real" photographer, it happens sRGB serves my simple purposes exactly, namely:

Viewing my images on my sRGB monitor.
Posting images on the Fora.
Sending images to friends and family.
Posting images on eBay.
Putting images up on Picasa-web.

I do ensure that a profile is embedded for important images (RawTherapee RT_sRGB) but (shock, horror) my quick and dirty FastStone Viewer images are profile-free. (I never "save for the web").

Maybe if I ever start printing . .
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Simon Garrett

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Re: Changing color space
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2015, 03:08:29 pm »

Not taking sides but, as I am not a "real" photographer, it happens sRGB serves my simple purposes exactly.

No criticism of that from me.  For many photographers, sRGB is just fine and dandy for all the reasons you give.  Furthermore, if one doesn't use colour management then sRGB is pretty much essential, as most monitors (at the moment) are roughly sRGB and most applications and devices will roughly default to sRGB without any colour management. 

I work with a photography club and spend quite a bit of time explaining how to cope with colour management to photographers - often very good ones - that find colour mangement very hard going (I'm not suggesting that latter point applies to you!).  For some of them, sticking to sRGB will give fair mileage with little if any knowledge of colour science.   I do agree with Andrew, and working in wider colour spaces is better for many purposes where output is not limited by standard-gamut, unmanaged monitors.   

But if someone is going to write books or blogs, or post videos "explaining" it to photographers, then they owe it to their audience (and to themselves) to make sure they understand it enough before spouting complete nonsense. 
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digitaldog

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Re: Changing color space
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2015, 06:44:36 pm »

Not taking sides but, as I am not a "real" photographer, it happens sRGB serves my simple purposes exactly, namely:

Viewing my images on my sRGB monitor.
Posting images on the Fora.
Sending images to friends and family.
Posting images on eBay.
Putting images up on Picasa-web.
Exactly, output to an emissive device that is often not color managed and not a wide gamut display system. The later being more affordable as time goes on, the later being something I suspect consumers will want (more saturated colors is usually not objectionable to them). So at some point in time, I suspect sRGB will go the way of the dodo bird.
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