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Author Topic: Canon 5DsR color in Capture One  (Read 9414 times)

G_Allen

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Canon 5DsR color in Capture One
« on: November 12, 2015, 08:35:51 pm »

Hi all,
I've recently begun testing a Canon 5DsR.
The color seems off to me in C1. I shoot mostly fashion catalogs in studio, and I am not able to achieve natural-looking skin tones and maintain the accurate color of the clothing.
The files in PS/LR look better, so I believe it is a profile issue in C1.

Has anyone else tested the 5Ds or 5DsR? Any solutions?

As a reference, I've never had color issues with the 1DsIII or the 5DIII files in C1.



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one iota

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Re: Canon 5DsR color in Capture One
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2015, 10:46:00 pm »

Hi Gregory,

I've found that the Canon DSLR 5Ds and 5Ds R Generic ICC profile curve "linear response" found in the Color-Base Characteristics more accurate than the other curve options when I compare it with a Macbeth color chart. I couldn't vouch for skin tone accuracy though.

The best color rendition I've found is by Canon's DPP software. The worst is by DxO.
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Mahn England

pfigen

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Re: Canon 5DsR color in Capture One
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2015, 02:29:35 am »

I've been getting very good results shooting people with the 5DS R and processing in C1 8.3.4.

Now here's the really interesting thing about this camera and Phase's associated profile. All Phase did was take the 5D3 Generic profile and rename it to 5DS Generic. How do I know this? When the 5DS(R) had "preliminary" support, if you embedded the 5DS Generic camera profile, then extracted said profile from the resulting processed tiff, it was actually the 5D3 profile. I filed a support case with Phase asking them about this and they confirmed that this was indeed the case, but it was a case of finding a temporary profile that would fill in until they built their real one.

When the latest 8.3.4 version was released with "official" support, I did the same, extracting the "new" 5DS Generic profile. Yes, it now says 5DS Generic when you extract it, but when you compare the two profiles - 5D3 Generic and 5DS Generic - in ColorThink Pro, they are exactly the same profiles. No difference at all, even down to the minor little squiggly portions of the gamut plots.
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AlterEgo

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Re: Canon 5DsR color in Capture One
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2015, 04:09:16 am »


Has anyone else tested the 5Ds or 5DsR? Any solutions?

try this one = https://app.box.com/s/sanrbg8qljxibibhoskafa1fukauzegw , to be used with linear curve as a starting point (any contrast to be added manually in C1)... has less yellow-brown tone in skin/greens
« Last Edit: November 13, 2015, 04:33:26 am by AlterEgo »
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torger

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Re: Canon 5DsR color in Capture One
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2015, 04:42:15 am »

When the latest 8.3.4 version was released with "official" support, I did the same, extracting the "new" 5DS Generic profile. Yes, it now says 5DS Generic when you extract it, but when you compare the two profiles - 5D3 Generic and 5DS Generic - in ColorThink Pro, they are exactly the same profiles. No difference at all, even down to the minor little squiggly portions of the gamut plots.

It's common that the same color filter coating is used in several sensor generations, and when that is the case the same profiles work. In some cases when third-party sensors are used, like Sony sensors, profiles can work between brands too. If analyzing all bundled C1 profiles I think there will be a whole lot of same profiles for different models. They save a lot of work this way.
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torger

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pfigen

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Re: Canon 5DsR color in Capture One
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2015, 07:30:23 pm »

"It's common that the same color filter coating is used in several sensor generations, and when that is the case the same profiles work. In some cases when third-party sensors are used, like Sony sensors, profiles can work between brands too. If analyzing all bundled C1 profiles I think there will be a whole lot of same profiles for different models. They save a lot of work this way."

That may be, but it was at least implied in the marketing that there was a stronger CFA on this camera, which gave it more pure colors and also limited the high iso performance, at the same time. The current input profile seems to work very well overall. If you're having an issue, it's also easy enough to make a slight tweak using Capture One's color controls and save that out as a new profile. I was just surprised to see what appears to be the exact same profile renamed, even after Phase said they were working on a finalized version. Maybe it took them that long to rename the file and be done with it. They certainly give you the impression that their color professor dude is locked away somewhere tweaking profiles until his eyes and everything else turns blue. They stop just before everything turns blue.
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torger

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Re: Canon 5DsR color in Capture One
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2015, 04:47:14 am »

Thanks for pointing that out, I didn't know. When Canon said that they have probably done some minor changes, I find it unlikely that would lie about actually doing anything, but probably exaggerating the effect as it's a message to the potential buyers.

Even if filters are quite different a profile sort of works anyway. It costs money perfecting profiles, and it's not hard to imagine that perhaps Phase One is not overly interested in making the new high res 135 cameras perform as good as possible. They are after all competing in the same segment as their own cameras. At the same time Capture One lives its own life and competes with Lightroom so they have good reasons to make a good job too.

Personally I'm not super-fond of the overly yellow warm tone of Phase One profiles (those I've seen at least I haven't tried the 5Ds myself), so I prefer custom profiles, but then again I wrote the software so it's perhaps not that strange :)
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AlterEgo

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Re: Canon 5DsR color in Capture One
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2015, 08:21:21 am »

Thanks for pointing that out, I didn't know. When Canon said that they have probably done some minor changes, I find it unlikely that would lie about actually doing anything, but probably exaggerating the effect as it's a message to the potential buyers.

like DxOMark or not - but the tab with color response might at least show presence or absence the of the noticeable difference between two models... for example looking @ WB scales threre one can see that one camera requires a stronger red channel multiplication... $0.02
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AlterEgo

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Re: Canon 5DsR color in Capture One
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2015, 08:25:13 am »

They are after all competing in the same segment as their own cameras. At the same time Capture One lives its own life and competes with Lightroom so they have good reasons to make a good job too.
C1 brings money to the table too when sold to dSLR/dSLM owners or even to MFDB owners who use dSLR/dSLM as 2nd cameras, so to cripple the cow is a dangerous policy in the long run
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nemophoto

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Re: Canon 5DsR color in Capture One
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2015, 08:36:28 am »

I'm a fashion shooter (and 5Ds owner), and your quandary is an age old one. The choice has always been "match the clothes" or "pleasing skin tone" since the days of film. Color separators always struggled with that and the chrome type used influenced this. (I was a dedicated Fujifilm shooter, but some clients required I shoot some awful slide film like Kodak EPN which was flat as dog crap and horrible for skin tones but "accurate" for the clothes if you shot it in the studio. The only problem was that I was shooting on location.) In the end, whether shooting film or digital, without extensive work in Photoshop, you can only really achieve "pleasing color".

The short answer is, rarely do they match. And sadly, I've found the last two versions of C1 have offered, well, ugly color. At this point, I've moved back to Lightroom (which has it's own issues), but color is not one, since I can create a custom profile with the X-rite ColorChecker card. From all I've read, the 5Ds is one of the most "accurate" cameras Canon has produced, especially when profiled. I feel Capture One should support the use of the ColorChecker. Others may have different experiences, but those are mine.
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AlterEgo

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Re: Canon 5DsR color in Capture One
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2015, 10:16:45 am »

since I can create a custom profile with the X-rite ColorChecker card.

and you can do the same for C1, you just need to look around for a second

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nemophoto

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Re: Canon 5DsR color in Capture One
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2015, 10:50:04 am »

and you can do the same for C1, you just need to look around for a second

I'd love to know how. I've never seen any reference in C1 to using custom ICC camera profiles. Lightroom makes it very easy to add and even create from within.
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AlterEgo

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Re: Canon 5DsR color in Capture One
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2015, 11:01:13 am »

I'd love to know how.
the link is in this very thread !
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AlterEgo

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Re: Canon 5DsR color in Capture One
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2015, 11:02:35 am »

Lightroom makes it very easy to add and even create from within.

no, you can't create dcp profiles from within LR... neither you can modify them... may be you mix profiles and recipes ?
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nemophoto

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Re: Canon 5DsR color in Capture One
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2015, 11:04:05 am »

the link is in this very thread !

I was talking about the use of the X-rite colorchecker software, not some additional software. I already own way too many programs to want to add yet another.
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AlterEgo

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Re: Canon 5DsR color in Capture One
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2015, 02:36:33 pm »

I was talking about the use of the X-rite colorchecker software, not some additional software. I already own way too many programs to want to add yet another.


well, you can as well remove for good that additional (because it is additional) x-rite colorchecker software (it is free so you do not "own" it) and replace it with the one that allows you to actually create profiles for both LR/ACR and C1 and from many other targets and with more control, including, for example, your own measurements of the actual target(s), etc...
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nemophoto

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Re: Canon 5DsR color in Capture One
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2015, 11:13:37 am »

well, you can as well remove for good that additional (because it is additional) x-rite colorchecker software (it is free so you do not "own" it) and replace it with the one that allows you to actually create profiles for both LR/ACR and C1 and from many other targets and with more control, including, for example, your own measurements of the actual target(s), etc...

All I can say is that the alternatives to the X-rite ColorChecker/Lightroom way to create a camera profile are, to say the least, time-consuming and convoluted. I'll stick with what I have rather try to jump through hoops to make Capture One more color correct for the 5Ds. If Phase One really wanted to present a credible challenge to Lightroom in workflow, an easier way to use/produce camera profiling should be one of them. at the very least, C1 should be able to use the ICC profiles already created with the ColorChecker.
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AlterEgo

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Re: Canon 5DsR color in Capture One
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2015, 11:24:35 am »

All I can say is that the alternatives to the X-rite ColorChecker/Lightroom way to create a camera profile are, to say the least, time-consuming and convoluted.

no pain no gain or, alternatively, guano in guano out.

at the very least, C1 should be able to use the ICC profiles already created with the ColorChecker.

not sure what do you mean... X-Rite software does not support creating icc/icm profiles (it did when it was in beta or so, but then x-rite removed the functionality), otherwise C1 is able to use the "ICC profiles already created with the ColorChecker", if you create them in a proper manner, which is described in dcamprof manual & tutorial and in a much more better & detailed way than any documentation you have for either X-Rite software or Adobe's own DNG PE or both combined... now if you do not want to invest your time it is a different story...
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