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Ray

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interesting article
« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2006, 06:57:13 am »

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Well, that's where I think you are wrong...increasing the exposure to get the main portion of the histogram to the right -WILL- provide more tones (levels) and allow you to do more with the data such as expand the data and increase contrast on the resulting raw conversion WITHOUT the noise growing in the shadows.


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Jeff,
I don't think I've ever implied that exposing more to the right will not provide more levels. I use the evaluative metering mode quite often. At ISO 100 I notice that quite often with low DR subjects I could reshoot the scene with an additional stop of exposure. Doing so gives an over all appearance of an overexposed shot and introduces a risk of inadvertantly blowing wanted detail in highlights. I tend to not want to take that risk for the sake of perhaps smoother tonality of pixel-peeping proportions.

But you are of course quite right that more levels are better than fewer levels. I would not argue against that. At higher ISOs, I get more anxious about ETTR because I know from experience that a difference of just 1/2 a stop of exposure can make a worthwhile difference to shadow and mid tone noise. At lower ISOs I feel I can be more relaxed about the need for ETTR. At ISO 100 with a low DR subject, I can get so relaxed I might not even bother to reshoot the scene if there's not much showing on the left side of the histogram.
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Chris_T

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interesting article
« Reply #41 on: April 18, 2006, 08:34:51 am »

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Again, I must point out the importance of determining your sensor's exact ISO and dynamic range and to expose to just retain textural detail without clipping. But without certain knowledge of your sensor's ISO and dynamic range, most people fail to actually use that densely packed area of near clipped data.
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A very interesting and needed thread. I don't own a digital camera, and have always wondered how its sensor differ from film, but have never found a book or article that clearly explains it. If such literature exist, please point me to them.

At the risk of adding more confusion, here's one book author's attempt (he may be too simplistic, but at least he tried):

"The digital equivalent of the exposure-latitude variations between slide and negative is the selection of file format. Shooting RAW files is comparable to exposing negative film. The unprocessed file allows images that were under or overexposed by up to two, or even three, stops to be successfully converted and printed. TIFF files also offer a fair bit of latitude, with over- and underexposure by up to 1-1/2 stops not causing too many problems. Shooting JPEGs is more like exposing slide film. The processed file demands greater accuracy at the time of capture, but excellent results can still be achieved with files over and underexposed by one stop."

BTW, how can one determine a "sensor's exact ISO and dynamic range"?
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BJL

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interesting article
« Reply #42 on: April 18, 2006, 03:14:10 pm »

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If you compare a 'correctly' exposed shot at ISO 1600 (exposed fully to the right) with the same shot at ISO 100 (same shutter speed and f stop), the ISO 100 shot will appear to be underexposed.  However, the sensor has received the same amount of light, yet shadow noise will be very much greater. This implies that noise reduction cna be more successfully implemented when the signal is boosted.
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Indeed, and it is not just a matter of noise reduction: underexposing by four stops at ISO 100 means that the signal passes through the last pre-amplifier stages 1/16th as strong, and then has to be amplified 16 times as much in the digital domain to get correct levels. This means that an noise introduced late on the pre-amplifier stage and "quantization noise" from A/D conversion gets amplified by an extra factor of 16.

Part of optimal choice of the three exposure parameters (aperture, shutter speed and ISO speed) to minimize shadow noise is amplifying the signal sent into the A/D converter as much as possible without having the highlight signal stronger than the A/D convertor can handle. So even at high ISO speeds, where the sensor is getting well below maximum exposure, you might want to push the "A/D convertor input histogram" to the right.

For example, for a scene with details of interest in rather deep shadows and highlights not going far above the mid-tones, it might be better to "overexpose" by one stop at ISO 800 vs "on meter" exposure at ISO 400 (so same shutter speed and aperture) if the system has enough highlight headroom to handle this overexposure. But you do then have to fiddle with reducing brightness in PP though, pushing the tone curve down in the mid-tones or something like that.
This is a bit like "exposing for the shadows" when the shadows are of interest, while keeping the highlights just within gamut.
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bjanes

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interesting article
« Reply #43 on: April 18, 2006, 06:33:17 pm »

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A very interesting and needed thread. I don't own a digital camera, and have always wondered how its sensor differ from film, but have never found a book or article that clearly explains it. If such literature exist, please point me to them.

At the risk of adding more confusion, here's one book author's attempt (he may be too simplistic, but at least he tried):

"The digital equivalent of the exposure-latitude variations between slide and negative is the selection of file format. Shooting RAW files is comparable to exposing negative film. The unprocessed file allows images that were under or overexposed by up to two, or even three, stops to be successfully converted and printed. TIFF files also offer a fair bit of latitude, with over- and underexposure by up to 1-1/2 stops not causing too many problems. Shooting JPEGs is more like exposing slide film. The processed file demands greater accuracy at the time of capture, but excellent results can still be achieved with files over and underexposed by one stop."

BTW, how can one determine a "sensor's exact ISO and dynamic range"?
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I don't think many of the forum experts would agree with your reference on exposure. With raw files, one can recover one half to one stop of overexposure, but with more overexposure the highlights will be clipped and data irretrievably lost. With significant underexposure, dynamic range and noise will suffer, expecially when shooting at higher ISOs.

Here is an explanation of sensor ISO as it applies to digital sensors:

[a href=\"http://www.normankoren.com/digital_cameras.html#ISOspeed]http://www.normankoren.com/digital_cameras.html#ISOspeed[/url]

If you take a picture of a uniformly lit gray or white card (it doesn't make any difference), and render the image in sRGB or aRGB, you should get a pixel value of 114 if your system is properly calibrated.

Dynamic range is defined by electronic engineers as linear full well (electrons)/read noise (electrons). This is discussed by Roger Clark:

http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/eva...-1d2/index.html

Since the floor of dynamic range is determined by noise, the DR is much lower at high ISOs than lower ISOs as shown in Roger's tables. The presentation is rather technical one can get most of the important information merely by inspecting the tables.
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bjanes

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interesting article
« Reply #44 on: April 18, 2006, 08:40:27 pm »

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I use the evaluative metering mode quite often. At ISO 100 I notice that quite often with low DR subjects I could reshoot the scene with an additional stop of exposure. Doing so gives an over all appearance of an overexposed shot and introduces a risk of inadvertantly blowing wanted detail in highlights. I tend to not want to take that risk for the sake of perhaps smoother tonality of pixel-peeping proportions.

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Ray,

Your approach makes sense. In a previous thread on the Adobe forum I engaged in a discussion with Jeff and Bruce Fraser about the dangers of highlight loss, but with more experience, study, and testing I have come closer to embracing their views. With reasonably careful exposure and with highlight recovery in ACR the dangers of high light loss are minimal.

That said, shooting at ISO 100 rather than 400 can improve DR and shadow noise more than ETTR unless you are really under exposing.
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bjanes

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interesting article
« Reply #45 on: April 18, 2006, 09:05:31 pm »

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I'm still travelling so don't often get on the net. I see you've misunderstood what I mean here. Exposure is determined by shutter speed and f stop. No matter what the ISO, if the exposure is the same, then the same amount of light falls upon the sensor. An ISO setting is merely an instruction to the camera to amplify the signal and apply certain noise reduction processes. If you compare a 'correctly' exposed shot at ISO 1600 (exposed fully to the right) with the same shot at ISO 100 (same shutter speed and f stop), the ISO 100 shot will appear to be underexposed.  However, the sensor has received the same amount of light, yet shadow noise will be very much greater. This implies that noise reduction cna be more successfully implemented when the signal is boosted.
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Yes, I did mis-read your original post. I hardly expected that anyone would give an ISO 1600 exposure with the camera set at ISO 100. Why would you do that? However, if you are shooting in RAW I'm not sure that the noise would be that much different. Have you done the experiment? The main determinant of noise is photon counting statistics and the same number of photons would be captured in both cases. However, without the additional signal amplification, the analog to digital conveter would produce many fewer levels with the ISO 100 setting and there would be poor quantification.

When recording very low light levels, such in astrophotography, Roger Clark reports that with the Canon EOS 1D Mark II, it is better to use ISO 1600 than 3200, presumably using exposure adjustment in rendering the raw image so as to make better advantage of the read noise at ISO 1600.

[a href=\"http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/evaluation-1d2/index.html]http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/eva...-1d2/index.html[/url]
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Ray

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interesting article
« Reply #46 on: April 19, 2006, 09:25:40 am »

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I hardly expected that anyone would give an ISO 1600 exposure with the camera set at ISO 100. Why would you do that?

Two reasons. First, just plain curiosity, and second a real practical reason. To change ISO on the D60, my first DSLR, I had to scroll through a menu selection. There were times when I needed to take a shot in a hurry to capture the moment. Stuffing around with ISO selection was not on. If my camera was set on ISO 100, which it was most of the time, I needed to know if an underexposed ISO 100 shot was significantly more noisy than a correctly exposed ISO 400 shot. With the D60 it wasn't. However, the D60 didn't extend to ISO 1600.

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Have you done the experiment? The main determinant of noise is photon counting statistics and the same number of photons would be captured in both cases.

I've just repeated the experiment with my 5D. I arrived back in Brisbane this morning. I haven't had the opportunity yet to process the thousands of shots of temples in the jungles of Cambodia, Hill tribes in the north of Vietnam and elephants squirting water over people during the Songkran festival in Thailand, etc etc., but shooting a few test shots from my back yard to demonstrate a point is easy, thanks to the digital revolution.

The first is the full scene taken at dusk; ISO 1600, 100th sec, f8, exposed fully to the right.

The next two are 100% crops of the lower left corner of that scene at ISO 100 and ISO 1600. I think there's no need to label them. The ISO 100 shot is very much noisier.

The settings for conversion in ACR were; shadows zero; contrast zero; brightness default 50. For the ISO 1600 shot I used minus 1 EC and the ISO 100 shot plus 3 EC, the difference being 4 stops of EC between the 2 exposures.

[attachment=486:attachment]

[attachment=487:attachment]

[attachment=488:attachment]

ps. Forgot to mention - Canon 24-105 IS at 24mm.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2006, 09:51:58 am by Ray »
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bjanes

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interesting article
« Reply #47 on: April 19, 2006, 10:09:40 pm »

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The first is the full scene taken at dusk; ISO 1600, 100th sec, f8, exposed fully to the right.

The next two are 100% crops of the lower left corner of that scene at ISO 100 and ISO 1600. I think there's no need to label them. The ISO 100 shot is very much noisier.

The settings for conversion in ACR were; shadows zero; contrast zero; brightness default 50. For the ISO 1600 shot I used minus 1 EC and the ISO 100 shot plus 3 EC, the difference being 4 stops of EC between the 2 exposures.

ps. Forgot to mention - Canon 24-105 IS at 24mm.
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Ron,

Very interesting experiment! The noise at the ISO 1600 does have markedly less noise. Since the exposure is the same, the amount of light hitting the sensor and the photon noise should be the same in both cases.

According to Roger Clark's analysis of noise on the EOS 1D Mark II,  the main sources of noise are photon noise and read noise. Dark current enters the equation at very low illuminance levels. According to Roger's tests, the read noise of the above camera is 3.90 electrons at ISO 1600 and 16.61 at ISO 100. Perhaps the lower read noise at ISO 1600 is responsible for the lower noise without invoking increased NR at 1600.

Ron Parr, who is a computer science professor at Duke and an avid photographer, states that he sees no evidence that Canon applies additional NR at ISO 1600:

[a href=\"http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=18059253]http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp...essage=18059253[/url]
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Ray

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interesting article
« Reply #48 on: April 20, 2006, 02:34:41 am »

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According to Roger's tests, the read noise of the above camera is 3.90 electrons at ISO 1600 and 16.61 at ISO 100. Perhaps the lower read noise at ISO 1600 is responsible for the lower noise without invoking increased NR at 1600.


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Ron Parr, who is a computer science professor at Duke and an avid photographer, states that he sees no evidence that Canon applies additional NR at ISO 1600:


The above 2 statements are contradictory. Since ISO 1600 shots are clearly less noisy than ISO 100 shots when equal amounts of light fall on the sensor, then additional noise reduction must have been applied, either actively or by default.

As I understand, the major component of readout noise arises from the on-chip pre-amplifier. The greater the amplification (prior to A/D conversion) the greater the read noise. If Roger Clark has tested a lower read noise at ISO 1600 than at ISO 100, then that would be proof that additional noise reduction has been applied at ISO 1600. (Assuming Roger's methodology is sound).

I repeated the above experiment at mid-day to check if the noise differences are as great in better lighting conditions. They are. Exposure was 1/200th at f22 for both shots. During RAW conversion I applied -0.8 EC to the 1600 image and +3.2 EC to the ISO 100 image. The ISO 1600 image has better (smoother) tonality in all parts of the image, including the water and the sky.

[attachment=496:attachment]                                                   [attachment=497:attachment]
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Ray

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interesting article
« Reply #49 on: April 20, 2006, 03:12:52 am »

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it might be better to "overexpose" by one stop at ISO 800 vs "on meter" exposure at ISO 400 (so same shutter speed and aperture) if the system has enough highlight headroom to handle this overexposure.


BJL,
This appears to be the case. However, if the system has enough highlight headroom to fully expose to the right at ISO 800, then there's enough headroom to give double the exposure at ISO 400, which of course will produce even better tonality in the shadows.
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bjanes

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interesting article
« Reply #50 on: April 20, 2006, 06:38:45 am »

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The above 2 statements are contradictory. Since ISO 1600 shots are clearly less noisy than ISO 100 shots when equal amounts of light fall on the sensor, then additional noise reduction must have been applied, either actively or by default.

As I understand, the major component of readout noise arises from the on-chip pre-amplifier. The greater the amplification (prior to A/D conversion) the greater the read noise. If Roger Clark has tested a lower read noise at ISO 1600 than at ISO 100, then that would be proof that additional noise reduction has been applied at ISO 1600. (Assuming Roger's methodology is sound).

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These statements are hardly contradictory at all. You have it backwards: read noise is lower at high ISO than low ISO. As discussed in the Kodak white paper below, read noise has two main components: white noise and flicker noise. In the equation for white noise, the amplifier gain is in the denominator and hence greater gain (used at higher ISO) results in less white noise. The flicker noise has to do with with speed of the readout--it is greater when the pixels are read out faster. The discussion is for CCD, but the same principles apply to CMOS (according to Ron Parr).

[a href=\"http://www.kodak.com/global/plugins/acrobat/en/digital/ccd/applicationNotes/noiseSources.pdf]http://www.kodak.com/global/plugins/acroba...oiseSources.pdf[/url]


The read noise can be determined by simple user tests as Roger describes. I have determined the read noise for the Nikon D200. It is about 14.3 electrons at ISO 100 and 9.9 electrons at ISO 1600. Roger's values for the Canon are 16.61 and 3.93 electrons respectively. The Nikon does no on chip NR, so your theory does not seem to be correct. Your observations are correct, but I suspect that your interpretation is not.

The higher read noise of the Nikon D200 at ISO 1600 as compared to the Canon EOS 1D Mark II (and most likely other Canon cameras) may explain at least in part why the Canons have better high ISO performance. Read noise has a profound effect with low signal levels, whereas photon sampling noise predominates at higher signal levels.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2006, 06:41:46 am by bjanes »
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BJL

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interesting article
« Reply #51 on: April 20, 2006, 03:21:20 pm »

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BJL,
This appears to be the case. However, if the system has enough highlight headroom to fully expose to the right at ISO 800, then there's enough headroom to give double the exposure at ISO 400, which of course will produce even better tonality in the shadows.
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I am talking about giving the sensor maximum possible exposure before highlights bloom. If a certain exposure level (in the sense of shutter speed and aperture choice) just avoids overflow of highlight pixels, it does that regardless of ISO setting: for example if ISO 800 "on meter" fills some pixels to just below maximum, then so will ISO 400 one stop under, while ISO 400 "on meter" will involve double the exposure (by halving shutter speed or opening up one stop larger aperture or whatever) which will blow out some highlights. So there will then be a cost to the improved shadow handling.

My proposed guideline:
1. choose exposure level (shutter speed and f-stop) to give maximum exposure of the sensor, and then
2. choose the highest ISO setting that does not pre-amplify the sensor's signal so much that highlights are clipped in A/D conversion.
Typically step 2. will mean using the ISO speed that goes with "on meter" exposure, but a bit under for subjects with a wide range from mid-tones to highlights, and maybe a bit over for subjects with a narrow range there.
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Ray

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interesting article
« Reply #52 on: April 20, 2006, 07:29:57 pm »

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I am talking about giving the sensor maximum possible exposure before highlights bloom. If a certain exposure level (in the sense of shutter speed and aperture choice) just avoids overflow of highlight pixels, it does that regardless of ISO setting: for example if ISO 800 "on meter" fills some pixels to just below maximum, then so will ISO 400 one stop under, while ISO 400 "on meter" will involve double the exposure (by halving shutter speed or opening up one stop larger aperture or whatever) which will blow out some highlights. So there will then be a cost to the improved shadow handling.

My proposed guideline:
1. choose exposure level (shutter speed and f-stop) to give maximum exposure of the sensor, and then
2. choose the highest ISO setting that does not pre-amplify the sensor's signal so much that highlights are clipped in A/D conversion.
Typically step 2. will mean using the ISO speed that goes with "on meter" exposure, but a bit under for subjects with a wide range from mid-tones to highlights, and maybe a bit over for subjects with a narrow range there.
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Still can't follow your reasoning here, BJL. It's possible to give the sensor maximum possible exposure, in terms of real photons, only at base ISO. At higher than base ISO, the well will never be full using a 'correct' or metered exposure for that higher ISO. If you are going to follow the procedure of exposing fully to the right, short of clipping highlights and consistent with an appropriate exposure/f stop combination for your intentions, then doing so at the lowest ISO possible will always produce better tonality.

If a metered exposure at, say, ISO 400 looks as though it could be a stop greater, then sticking with ISO 400 and doubling the exposure will produce better results than moving up to ISO 800 using the metered exposure for ISO 400, provided the slower shutter speed is still fast enough for the conditions.
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BJL

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interesting article
« Reply #53 on: April 20, 2006, 09:02:40 pm »

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It's possible to give the sensor maximum possible exposure, in terms of real photons, only at base ISO.
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No: the amount of light delivered to each photosite is determined solely by aperture an shutter speed: ISO speed setting only effects the subsequent processing during read-out of the electrons gathered in the photosites. If f/16 1/100s  ISO 100 in bright sun fills the highlight photosites, then so does f/16 1/100s, ISO 200, but in the latter case, that signal is amplified twice as much before A/D conversion, which might cause clipping in the amplifier or A/D convertor.

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At higher than base ISO, the well will never be full using a 'correct' or metered exposure ...
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Aha, we are talking about different cases. I was explicitly _not_ talking about "correct metered exposure", but equal exposure levels, meaning equal shutter speed and f-stop. My scenario is a kind of full manual mode, selecting shutter speed and aperture (to fill highlight photosites) and then also choosing ISO speed. Normally, my procedure would end up choosing the ISO that gives "correct metered exposure", but sometimes, a bit of overexposure (when highlights can stand it) could help with shadow noise.
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Ray

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interesting article
« Reply #54 on: April 20, 2006, 09:04:52 pm »

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These statements are hardly contradictory at all. You have it backwards: read noise is lower at high ISO than low ISO. As discussed in the Kodak white paper below, read noise has two main components: white noise and flicker noise. In the equation for white noise, the amplifier gain is in the denominator and hence greater gain (used at higher ISO) results in less white noise. The flicker noise has to do with with speed of the readout--it is greater when the pixels are read out faster. The discussion is for CCD, but the same principles apply to CMOS (according to Ron Parr).


Maybe I have got it backwards. There's a lot of misinformation on the net. Ultimately, one can only go along with what makes sense and what gels with other concepts one thinks one has understood. The idea that a signal can be amplified with a result that noise is less in absolute terms rather than relative terms does not make sense to me, in the absensce of a noise reduction technique. Yet the formula you refer to in the Kodak paper certainly suggest that this is the case. I'm not a mathematician but I cans see that a numerator enclosed in a square root is not going to escalate in value greatly and a denominator consisting of what is essentially a constant (efficiency) multiplied by a gain figure, can only have an effect of reducing the over all value as gain increases.

Having just looked at Roger's table of measurements you've provided a link to, it's clear he is not measuring the readout noise of equal photon counts at different ISOs. As ISO increases, the absolute value of readout noise is shown as falling, but dynamic range and signal-to-noise falls much more dramatically. As you can see from my example images, in situations where the photon count is the same, the higher ISO image has better S/N and DR.

What appears to be happening here (it's the only interpretation I can think of) is the signal being read is approximately the same level at all ISOs. The difference is, the signal at lower ISOs has resulted from a higher photon count combined with lower gain. It sort of makes sense that a signal that has been amplified in a controlled fashion might be easier to read than a signal that is just stronger initially.

Nevertheless, I still find it difficult to accept that there is no additional noise reduction going on at high ISOs. If one looks at the history of Canon DSLR development, there appears to be no dramatic improvement in S/N and DR at base ISO. The 1Ds actually had slightly worse noise than the D60 at ISO 100, on a pixel for pixel basis. Nor did the later 10D have better noise characteristics than the D60 at ISO 100, but it certainly did at ISO 400 and above, and this improvement at high ISOs has continued with the 20D and 5D, so it seems clear to me that that simple formula you refer to in the Kodak paper is not telling the whole story. I would also find it difficult to believe that that equation represents any recent development in preamplifier and/or CMOS chip design.

Whilst doing a bit of research on Google, I came across an interesting thread on Photonet, which addresses some of these issues. The article here is mainly about dark frame subtraction during post processing, which doesn't appear to produce consistent results because this sort of thing is best done in-camera prior to demosaicing. However, the author, Jeff Medkeff, seems convinced that modern CMOS imagers have on-chip noise reduction devices for readout noise which he refers to as 'bias noise'.

Following are a couple of relevant quotes from his article.

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Bias noise is also highly repeatable - but since it is a result of reading out the sensor, it does not even depend on shooting conditions being the same. Practically the only variable affecting readout noise in a digital camera exposure is the amount of amplifier gain. As long as the amplifier gain remains the same, readout noise will be nearly identical from shot to shot. In general, doubling amplifier gain can be expected to approximately double the amount of readout noise.


Is Jeff dead wrong here?

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CMOS sensors allow the placement of both photosites and transistors on the sensor itself. (CCDs cannot have any processing circuitry built into the sensor - just transfer gates and the like, which are controlled by off-sensor control circuitry.) Because of this, CMOS sensors generally have at least the readout amplifier built in to the photosite. There may be other transistors as well, which perform other processing steps. It is now very common for a CMOS sensor to include noise-reduction circuitry directly on the sensor alongside the readout amplifier. In some designs, a sort of small dummy photosite, shaded from light, is used to quantify the likely dark noise level in the actual photosite, and this quantity is subtracted during readout. In other designs, a constant - corresponding to the tested dark current of the sensor - is subtracted from the photosite value during readout. If anything like this is happening, expectations such as "dark noise will double with twice the exposure duration" may turn out to be false.


This makes sense to me but what about the next statement?

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In addition, this on-sensor circuitry can be designed to subtract the amount of bias noise that the sensor designer expects will be contributed to that particular pixel. This is a design-time decision, so bias noise may still be introduced due to manufacturing variations, erroneous expectations on the part of the designer, changes in other circuitry at a later point in development that the designer decided not to compensate for, and so forth. In any case, if bias noise is being addressed in a CMOS sensor camera - and it is being aggressively dealt with in all known current DSLRs - the relationship between ISO and readout noise in a particular camera's images might not be as simple or as repeatable as expected.


Finally, there's one factor which might have a much greater effect (than lower read noise) on noise reduction of equal initial signals at high ISOs, and that is the number of bits available to describe the signal at the A/D conversion stage. Whether the signal is pushed to the right as a result of greater photon count or greater in-camera amplification, it's pushed to the right nevertheless and more levels are available during digitisation.
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Ray

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interesting article
« Reply #55 on: April 20, 2006, 10:02:12 pm »

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Aha, we are talking about different cases. I was explicitly _not_ talking about "correct metered exposure", but equal exposure levels, meaning equal shutter speed and f-stop.


BJL,
My last few posts and example images are about this exact scenario. Higher ISOs result in cleaner images using the same exposure. But the point which I think you are obscuring is that lower ISOs with appropriately greater exposure result in even cleaner images.

As bjanes asked in a previous post, why would anyone want to deliberately underexpose at a lower ISO setting? The only practical reason for doing so would be the possibility of losing a shot because of the time taken to move up to a higher ISO. In order to determine whether or not additional exposure (or additional preamplifier gain) will blow highlights, it's necessary to have a metered reading so I don't understand your comment that you are not referring to a 'correct metered exposure' scenario, unless you are quibbling about the use of the term 'correct' which I deliberately place in quotes to indicate it's a loose term.

Let's put it this way. Whichever way you look at it, an accurate exposure reading is necessary whether it's a reading from the camera's meter, an external meter, or a histogram, or an educated guess. Having determined how much highlight headroom is available from an accurate metered reading of one sort or another, it then makes more sense to increase exposure accordingly at the lowest ISO possible, consistent with an adequately fast shutter speed for the conditions. If use of a low ISO setting results in an inadequate shutter speed for an ETTR situation, or a DoF which is too shallow, then it's advantageous to move up to a higher ISO setting.
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bjanes

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interesting article
« Reply #56 on: April 21, 2006, 08:59:22 am »

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Maybe I have got it backwards. There's a lot of misinformation on the net. Ultimately, one can only go along with what makes sense and what gels with other concepts one thinks one has understood.

Having just looked at Roger's table of measurements you've provided a link to, it's clear he is not measuring the readout noise of equal photon counts at different ISOs. As ISO increases, the absolute value of readout noise is shown as falling, but dynamic range and signal-to-noise falls much more dramatically. As you can see from my example images, in situations where the photon count is the same, the higher ISO image has better S/N and DR.

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Yes, there is a lot of misinformation on the web and you must carefully evaluate what you read there. If you look at Roger's bio

[a href=\"http://www.clarkvision.com/rnc/index.html]http://www.clarkvision.com/rnc/index.html[/url]

you will see he is highly qualified in this area, having received a PhD in astrophysics from MIT, published more than 160 sceintific papers, and participated in many NASA imaging projects. He does not measure readout noise at equal photon counts because readout noise is not correlated with the photon count, but remains constant for a given ISO. If you read his methodolgy, you will see that he determines read noise with the lens cap on, resulting in a very low photon count.

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Following are a couple of relevant quotes from his article.

In general, doubling amplifier gain can be expected to approximately double the amount of readout noise.

Is Jeff dead wrong here?

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Most likely he is, since his assertions do not agree with Roger's or the Kodak white paper. I note that he is a photographer and amateur astronomer and not an imaging scientist. If you look at the Kodak white paper on white noise, you will see that neither the numerator nor the denominator contains any reference to the photon count. Since amplifier gain is in the denominator, increased gain should decrease white noise, consistent with Roger's article.

Furthermore, if you read Roger's article, you will see that he measures noise observationally, and then calculates photon noise, read noise, and dark noise and verifies that the calculations match the observed noise, thereby double checking the results.

In practice, one does not hold the photon count constant, but rather as photon count decreases, the amplifier gain is increased so that the resultant voltage matches the scale of the AD converter. I do not understand your obsession with holding the photon count constant--that is not what is done in practice.

I must admit that I am not am imaging scientist either, and only learned about most of these topics recently after having read Roger's posts. Hopefully a real scientist will jump into the thread and clarify things.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2006, 09:12:19 am by bjanes »
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Ray

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interesting article
« Reply #57 on: April 21, 2006, 11:31:06 am »

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you will see he is highly qualified in this area, having received a PhD in astrophysics from MIT, published more than 160 sceintific papers, and participated in many NASA imaging projects.


That may be so, but I've long since stopped accepting the word of people just because they appear to be exceptionally qualified, because I'm aware there is a long list of exceptionally learned and intelligent people from the time of Aristotle and beyond who have been dead wrong on a number of issues, in retrospect of course. But I will read more of Roger's articles when I have time.

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He does not measure readout noise at equal photon counts because readout noise is not correlated with the photon count, but remains constant for a given ISO. If you read his methodolgy, you will see that he determines read noise with the lens cap on, resulting in a very low photon count.


You're contradicting yourself here, bjanes. Whether it's a low photon count or even a zero photon count, if the lens cap is on it's an equal photon count. If this is the case, then the fewer electrons of noise at ISO 1600 could not explain the dramatic reduction of noise I see at ISO 1600.

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I do not understand your obsession with holding the photon count constant--that is not what is done in practice.


No obsession. Just trying to get a handle on possible future developments. The phenomenon of being able to clean up noise so dramatically simply by amplifying the signal causes me to wonder if the reverse could be done simultaneously on the right side of the histogram, ie. compressing the higher tones to achieve greater dynamic range. I've spent a lot on DSLRs (a lot by my standards). I have a D60, a 20D and a 5D and each of these camera's I've bought as result of either significant resolution improvement and/or dramatic noise reduction at high ISOs. I hope this trend continues and since it's going to affect my wallet if it does continue, I have a fairly strong interest in possible trends and improvements.

Cheers!
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bjanes

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interesting article
« Reply #58 on: April 21, 2006, 01:29:21 pm »

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That may be so, but I've long since stopped accepting the word of people just because they appear to be exceptionally qualified, because I'm aware there is a long list of exceptionally learned and intelligent people from the time of Aristotle and beyond who have been dead wrong on a number of issues, in retrospect of course. But I will read more of Roger's articles when I have time.

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Ray, you appear to accept whatever agrees with your preconceived notion, and ignore what does not agree with your preconception. It is impossible to reason with you and I will end my responses to you at this time.

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You're contradicting yourself here, bjanes. Whether it's a low photon count or even a zero photon count, if the lens cap is on it's an equal photon count. If this is the case, then the fewer electrons of noise at ISO 1600 could not explain the dramatic reduction of noise I see at ISO 1600.

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This is the second time I have contradicted myself (according to you), without actually having done so. The lens cap is in place so that the observed noise is due to read noise (and a very small amount of dark current) and not to Poisson photon noise. The purpose of the lens cap is not to hold the photon count constant.

Goodbye  
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BJL

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interesting article
« Reply #59 on: April 21, 2006, 01:35:44 pm »

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BJL,
My last few posts and example images are about this exact scenario. Higher ISOs result in cleaner images using the same exposure.
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We agree!
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But the point which I think you are obscuring is that lower ISOs with appropriately greater exposure result in even cleaner images.
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I am not obscuring that at all; I repeat, we are simply considering different situations.

You are now considering the case where one has the option of increasing sensor exposure, in the sense of a longer exposure time or a larger aperture. Then it is not surprising that working at low "base ISO" speed is best.

I was considering the case you previously raised with your ISO 1600 vs "ISO 100 four stops underexposed": when light is scarce so that even with maximum possible sensor exposure there is no chance of any photosites getting "full" and using base ISO would involve underexposure. Then the best procedure seems to be to raise the ISO (pre-amplification before A/D conversion) so that the A/D convertor sees a "full strength" signal, with the brightest highlights producing near maximum levels in the RAW digital output. Probably often "on meter", but maybe an even higher ISO and so a bit "over meter" when the highlights do no go far above the metered mid-tones and so the mid-tones (and shadows) can be pushed further right on the histogram.


Note on another discussion in this thread: be careful to distinguished absolute levels of noise from signal-to-noise ratios. Increased pre-amplification will likely increase absolute noise levels, but sometimes by less than the increase in signal level, resulting in increased signal-to-noise ratio, often described as reduced noise.

My rough explanation is that some noise is introduced after some or all pre-amplification has happened, and so if the signal is stronger when that noise enters (due to greater pre-amplification), the ratio of that signal to the new noise is higher (better).

To put it another way: you need the same amount of amplification in then end, including adjusting levels up in an underexposed image, so it is always better to have part of the noise enter after part of the amplification has been done rather than before, to minimize further amplification of that part of the noise.
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