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Author Topic: Sony to buy Toshiba sensor division  (Read 3267 times)

Chuck Fan

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Re: Sony to buy Toshiba sensor division
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2015, 10:27:48 pm »

For only $165 million?  I would think if Nikon really live in dread of this eventuality, It is within Nikon's powers to raise the funds to buy Toshiba sensor division themselves.   The fact they didn't suggests that in Nikon's estimation, it was not worth $165 million to keep Toshiba out of Sony hands.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Sony to buy Toshiba sensor division
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2015, 10:53:13 pm »

For only $165 million?  I would think if Nikon really live in dread of this eventuality, It is within Nikon's powers to raise the funds to buy Toshiba sensor division themselves.   The fact they didn't suggests that in Nikon's estimation, it was not worth $165 million to keep Toshiba out of Sony hands.

Assuming that this was an open sales, which I do not know. The Japanese gov has been known for "strongly suggesting" companies to group their assets on some strategic domains in order to fight an identified foreign threat, such as Samsung for example.

Besides, Sony probably bought a few patents of interest and some manufacturing facilities more than the current product line. That should make sense on top of their existing capacities.

By itself, I am not sure that the value would have been as high for Nikon.

Cheers,
Bernard

hjulenissen

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Re: Sony to buy Toshiba sensor division
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2015, 02:56:11 am »

I guess the more Sony gets to dominate sensor manufacture, the less eager they will be to continue developing the tech and reducing prices?

-h
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Sony to buy Toshiba sensor division
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2015, 09:14:24 am »

I guess the more Sony gets to dominate sensor manufacture, the less eager they will be to continue developing the tech and reducing prices?

Yes, you could think that.

Now, how to motivate buyers to spend more money on cameras, with the already very high level of performance of what they already own, unless you come up with some innovations?

Cheers,
Bernard

synn

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Re: Sony to buy Toshiba sensor division
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2015, 09:20:00 am »

In a way, we are heading back to the film days where all cameras exposed on the exact same medium and the fetures of the bodies and lens lineups are what mattered.
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Chuck Fan

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Re: Sony to buy Toshiba sensor division
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2015, 09:52:23 am »

I know Sony full frame CMOS seems to lead the field in color depth and dynamic range at the moment.   Does that mean Sony leads across the board?   Is it chip design or fabrication technology that has given Sony whatever lead it has?   Does Sony in fact possess all the intellectual property rights to all aspect of what has given it the advantage it currently enjoys?

Until recently, it is often said that while Sony makes the sensors in D800, and one assumes, the D810, Nikon actually designed the sensors.   If this is not pure hot air from Nikon's marketing department, then it implies Nikon own some significant intellectual property and Sony and Nikon collaborate in a more fundamental way than implied by a vendor client relationship.

Until recently Canon has not deigned to purchase Sony chips.   That suggest at least Canon feels the Sony lead is not insurmountable by it's own resources.  Canon has put out some impressive sensors in the last couple of months.   

So just how dominant is Sony?   What is the size of its sensor making business?   What is the total size of commercial camera sensor industry overall?  Who are the other major competitors?   
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 10:22:34 am by Chuck Fan »
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Paul2660

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Re: Sony to buy Toshiba sensor division
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2015, 10:22:09 am »

I wonder if this is being sold to Sony? of the new spin off sensor company Sony created.  As I understand it the new company is totally divested from Sony, just like the PC company was from IBM when sold to Lenovo.  So the new sensor company can go in their own direction. 

That announcement was 2 weeks ago, in regards to Sony spinning off their sensor division, which I saw as good news for the entire industry.

Paul C
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Chuck Fan

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Re: Sony to buy Toshiba sensor division
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2015, 10:29:54 am »

I wonder if this is being sold to Sony? of the new spin off sensor company Sony created.  As I understand it the new company is totally divested from Sony, just like the PC company was from IBM when sold to Lenovo.  So the new sensor company can go in their own direction. 

That announcement was 2 weeks ago, in regards to Sony spinning off their sensor division, which I saw as good news for the entire industry.

Paul C

One always needs to be careful when talking about Japanese companies being totally independent.   Japan has a very different corporate culture than the US.   Nominally independent companies sharing a common ancestry are usually heavily overrepresented on eachother's boards.   Independent shareholders have much less representation on the board than typical American company.   So while a Sony spin off may be nominally independent, its board could well consist mainly of Sony's cronies.     So Sony may well retain the ability to steer the new company to work in a way that benefits Sony instead of in a way that purely benefit itself and its own shareholders.

I don't know if this would in fact be how the new sensor division works, but Japanese companies do often work this way.
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BJL

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Sony to buy Toshiba's rather small sensor division for pocket change
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2015, 10:51:43 am »

Let's not over-estimate this.  The price is so low [0.165 billion US$] because Toshiba has a very small share of the total sensor market (I have see 2%) and I believe it has been losing money (the sale comes with Sony assuming debt too). So it is not increasing Sony's market share by much (maybe from 40% to 42%).  Also, I understand that this is mostly an acquisition of fabrication capability, and there are plenty of third-party fabs out there, particularly for the larger sensors like 1" and up, whose relatively large photo-sites (compared to camera phone sensors) do not need anything close to the state-of-the-art small feature size fabs. In fact, I have read that SLR sensors are often made on older equipment, whose minimum feature size is too large for making the newer generation of ever more packed camera-phone sensors, CPUs and memory chips. For example, the Aptina-designed sensors in some Nikon One cameras are outsourced; nether Nikon nor Aptina has fabs for this.

So I do not see much reduction in competition. We photographers tend to focus on our main interests, and so look at the bigger sensors (say 1" and up) that are a small fraction of the total sensor market, which is in turn only a part of a far larger CMOS device market.  Competition for Sony Semiconductor Solutions in the market for "sensors bigger than the ones in phones" will continue to come mostly from Canon, Samsung, Panasonic, Aptina/ON Semiconductor, CMOSIS, and so on.  (And if Canon needs to in order to maintain its lead in the ILC market, it could concentrate more on sensor design while outsource more if its fabrication.)

P. S. to put the $165 million dollar sale in perspective, Nikon's other sensor supplier Aptina was acquired last year by ON Semiconductor for a substantially higher price: $400 million.  By the way, ON also owns what used to be Kodak's sensor division (now called TrueSense).
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 11:24:29 am by BJL »
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synn

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Re: Sony to buy Toshiba sensor division
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2015, 11:50:07 am »

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razrblck

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Re: Sony to buy Toshiba sensor division
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2015, 11:52:48 am »

Nikon has been designing sensor since the days of the D1. The latest camera with fully Nikon designed sensor was for certain the D4, possibly also the D4s (but no one has disassembled and looked inside one yet). Other recent Nikon designs are the D3/D700, D3s and D3100 sensors. They were all made by Renesas, but only because Nikon doesn't have silicon wafer fabs to actually make them.

They have been using Sony sensors for some time now, and I think it has more to do with reducing costs by leveraging existing technology (a Sony sensor base) and rolling with it or applying minimal tweaks to the design. Such a partnership is really useful because Nikon can get sensors for much less than doing it all in house and hiring some fab to make them, and Sony gets in turn a lot of know-how for improving their designs.

If Sony were to magically lose all sanity and screw over Nikon, the latter would simply move back to doing their own thing or find someone else more willing to cooperate and share technology for profits. Hell, they could even end up buying Canon sensors and collaborate again with them, just like when they used to make lenses for Canon cameras back when ASA25 was all the rage.
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dwswager

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Re: Sony to buy Toshiba sensor division
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2015, 07:49:37 pm »

In a way, we are heading back to the film days where all cameras exposed on the exact same medium and the fetures of the bodies and lens lineups are what mattered.

Yeah!  I can't wait till we hit the point where usability and functionality overtake technical capability as the determining factors.
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jduncan

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Re: Sony to buy Toshiba sensor division
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2015, 02:36:32 pm »

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/1501716959/toshiba-to-sell-sensor-business-to-sony-for-165-million-dollars

Probably not seen as good news by Nikon. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

At this moment it looks bad, but not as bad as few weeks ago. Sony has sated, according to multiple sources that they wanted to "keep the best sensors for themselves".  That plus the confirmed toshiba news will move Nikon to a Hasselblad like position: stock with an old sensor.
The change is that Sony will make sensor production  an independent part of the conglomerate (maybe for business and regulatory reasons?) , so it could be that Nikon is not death yet, to be dramatic. If Sony decides to cut Nikon the gambit could backfire  if Nikon goes to Samsung. 

Best regards,
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Chuck Fan

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Re: Sony to buy Toshiba sensor division
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2015, 03:32:18 pm »

Is the Sony division that actually makes the lenses and the rest of the camera the same division that makes the sensor chips? 
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BJL

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Has Sony actually said it wants to keep the best sensors for itself?
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2015, 04:42:59 pm »

Sony has sated, according to multiple sources that they wanted to "keep the best sensors for themselves".
Where has Sony stated that?  No, I am not interested in links to multiple websites saying that "according to our usually reliable sources . . ."
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Chuck Fan

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Re: Sony to buy Toshiba sensor division
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2015, 05:30:30 am »

In the high end digital market, I think canon remains the one for Sony to beat.   This is not necessarily because canon has a more dominating digital stills imaging market presence or a more formidable product line than Nikon, but because canon is a far larger company than Nikon, and can command a broader range and depth of expertise and in-house fabrication capability than Nikon.   In a fight to the finish, canon would have more staying power than Nikon.    Even if Sony intends to eventually monopolize its own best sensors, I think it is bad strategy for Sony to turn Nikon completely against Sony, and possibly into some cooperation with canon, until Sony has gained the market presence to at least rival Nikon and canon.   So for the time being, I think Sony will continue to provide Nikon the chips to give Nikon some edge over canon in IQ, and to enable Nikon to not fall too far behind in the pixel race.
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BJL

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Re: Sony to buy Toshiba sensor division
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2015, 11:29:39 am »

Is the Sony division that actually makes the lenses and the rest of the camera the same division that makes the sensor chips?
No: sensor making is in a separate division, and in fact it is about to be spun-off as a formally separate company, "Sony Semiconductor Solutions Corporation", though this will still be wholly owned by the Sony parent company.   See the Sony press release at http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/201510/15-082E/index.html
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