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Author Topic: A7RM2 Battery Life, Chargers, the Nefarious Eye Sensor, and Mysteries  (Read 6056 times)

bob162

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I have both an A7ii and a A7RM2 (and 1Dx, 5D3, D810). Never since the original Quicktake 100/150 and Olympus E-10/20 cameras have I had such battery anxiety. Anything that can increase battery life is on the table, especially when it’s on the order of 15 to 20% improvement. More if you are 'walking around'.

This is long. The way the eye sensor is implemented is elusive- please, please forgive me. Can’t do it in a paragraph. It’s fixable.

‘Experiments’ follow that illustrate my point, plus a bonus ‘tape tip’. This is as of A7RM2 firmware 1.xx & 2.00

Revelations first, then I suggest a solution and would like to see if anybody agrees with me. Maybe Sony can be moved (firmware).

Small body equals small battery. Multi axis IS, fast processor, and displays suck current. That’s the tradeoff. I get that- it's OK

There are two battery lives- CIPA, and my own definition of “Walking Around Life”, or ‘WAL” which is dependent on the eye sensor.

CIPA- Rated at 290 ~ 340 shots. If you go to location A and knock off the shots at one go- especially with a tripod- this rating is for you. I get about 260 ~ 270. Not great, but manageable.

WAL- Turn the camera on and walk around a zoo- or equivalent- and take 20 to 50 pictures per day. Fails miserably.

I have everything turned off- prefocus (battery death), WiFi, preview, EVF/MONITOR set to MANUAL, 10 second sleep time, etc.

Experiment #1: Set the camera to auto switch between EVF and Monitor (default)
The eye sensor is a IR (infra red) emitter-detector pair. IR is sent from one ‘side’ of the sensor window, reflected off something and picked up by the other ‘side’. I used a white 3 x 5 index card to test range. White is irrelevant- it’s however IR sees it. There is hysteresis- it triggers at one distance and turns off at another. My A7RM2 range is 5 to 7 inches switching to EVF, and 6 to 8 inches switching back to Monitor. Try it. Set the camera on a towel (minimize table reflections) with the lens on the table (body tipped) so the EVF points skyward. You can move the card around and see where the cone of sensitivity is. Try different materials- some are really IR reflective.

Per Sony, EVF sucks more power than the monitor.

Range has to be far enough to cover worst case eye glasses / sun glasses, skin tone, temperature, sensor variations, etc. The EVF wakes up slowly. You need distance so the EVF can wake up as the eye approaches, creating the impression the EVF is ‘ready’ when you get there. Sony must think worst case. I get it.

Here is The Major Problem and the source of my anxiety: Triggering the eye sensor resets the sleep timer! Let that sink in. I have found that the big hit to WAL is the cursed eye sensor.

Experiment #2: Set the camera on a table, prop up the lens so the body is about vertical. Set to MANUAL Monitor, 10 second sleep time; confirm it’s not triggering off the table top (should sleep in 10 sec). Now put a coffee cup about 4” away. Wake it up, note battery percent, and the camera should not sleep. If it does sleep, move the cup. Now wait. At exactly 5 minutes the camera sleeps. Moral: For stationary objects (think camera bag, car seat, etc) the camera will sleep in 5 minutes. Battery will have dropped about 4 to 5%, or about 1% per minute. That means you wake the camera up, take a picture, put it in a bag, on a seat, hang it on your shoulder, etc and take a 5% battery hit each time. Do it 20 times or so (100 minutes ON time) and the battery is dead.

Experiment #3: As above, but instead of the coffee cup wave your hand in front of the sensor every 5 seconds or so. The camera will NEVER sleep. For excitement, set MANUAL EVF mode (Monitor is always off). Each time you wave your hand, you’ll see the EVF blink on. Go on, try it. Knock yourself out. I got to 14 minutes or so before my arm wore out. Moral: Moving objects cause the timer to eternally reset. If you are set to Auto (Sony default), then battery drop is even greater because either the EVF or Display is always on.

Experiment #4: Set it to MANUAL Monitor and 1 minute. Hang it off your shoulder and walk around. Watch the Monitor- with the Monitor always on the ‘never sleep’ effect is obvious. The sensor will trigger off of your clothing, your arm swinging as you walk, the camera swinging / rotating on your strap, people walking by (think subways, stadiums), restaurant chairs, bushes, shrubs, in short, anything near you. Odds are you will be ‘near’ something in the 1 minute default time and the camera will never shut down (Experiment #3). Perversely, sleep is not obvious in Auto mode since triggering switches to EVF- which sucks the most power.

Maybe turn the camera off ‘every time’? According to Sony- and I can confirm-  on / off cycles suck lots of power (sensor cleaning?), and is “not recommended”. Also, start up time is long (EVF).

I set the EVF / MONITOR to MANUAL, and assigned it to the wheel ‘Set’ button. As before, eye sensor Manual mode resets the sleep timer. I suppose the logic is to let the EVF switch off when away from the EVF, thereby saving power. Noble. But why do you need that on Manual Monitor? My sleep time is set to 10 seconds. I push the Set button to switch to Monitor (so status is obvious) and hold the camera away from me until the thing sleeps- major pain, but noticeable boost in WAL.

When tipping up the Monitor in ‘Auto’ mode the EVF triggers, so the Monitor blanks. Duh. In Auto or Manual it sleeps in 5 minutes because the eye sensor sees the (stationary) Monitor.

The only things that should reset the sleep timer (at least in Manual mode!) is button presses, lens and wheel movements, period. In short, everything EXCEPT the eye sensor.

Time for the 'Tip': Remove the eye cup. Next, I cut a 2 mm wide (3 mm is too much!) piece of blue painter’s tape, and stuck it to the extreme RIGHT side of the eye sensor. This reduced the range to 3 ~ 4 inches (Black electrical tape works better, but leaves a residue). Option: layer the tape to cut the range more. Can’t just lay a strip across the sensor because IR will reflect off the tape and leak to the detector, keeping it permanently triggered. Tape on the right sensor side seems to work better (probably the detector side). Must put the eye cup back on! Reducing the range DOES in fact help; I have a noticeable improvement in WAL.

I beat the range down to about 1” with more layers. I thought I had it, but no. When switching manually between EVF and monitor, the EVF has to see enough reflection to turn on (apparently more than in Auto). I could not fine tune it enough to get the EVF turned on but still keep the range down; had to back off. Maybe Sony could offer a ‘calibrated’ tape? Half joking.

What do other mirrorless guys do? I think Olympus had a button to switch with no sleep reset. What does Leica do (Q)? (the Q has been on my list..)

Possible Solutions (sadly, needs firmware)

1. In Manual switch mode, TURN OFF the eye sensor sleep timer reset, period. In Manual EVF mode, the sensor would still allow blanking the EVF when no eyeball is present. It would be a predictable sleep in all cases. I still would use 10 second sleep for lowest power. Of course, any button/wheel presses would extend the sleep timer. Bonus: Tipping the Monitor up would NOT trigger the 5 minute (stationary object) sleep time.

2. If marketing insists on leaving it alone (dumb, considering all the bad battery press), give me a function menu button option to sleep the camera. Yes, it takes up a button, but a dead battery makes buttons moot. One press of the button (like the wheel Set) would switch between Monitor and EVF. ‘Double click’ the same button to sleep. Now I can set much longer times for sleep without penalty- I can sleep it at my discretion.

3. Both 1 & 2. But I’m dreaming.

4. Tow a trailer filled with batteries and chargers.

Mysteries

Why when assigning a button to shut off the Monitor (a different menu option than Manual/Auto EVF/Monitor) does it leave the BACKLIGHT on? Why would Sony devote ink explaining that in the manual? The backlight is clearly under software control, so why not just kill it- and save power? What am I missing?

On charge time-

I have the grip with two batteries and two spares. The in-camera charger does not work with the grip, so it’s a battery dance.
Per Sony: Body charge time is 150 minutes. Included AC charger is 250 minutes. Sony charger model BCTRW is 220 minutes.

Huh? Why wouldn’t Sony just include the BCTRW- it can’t be more than pennies difference, gets you 30 minutes LESS charge time, and is CONSIDERABLY smaller. And why are the dedicated chargers 70 to 100 minutes MORE than the body? The battery is in open air for better cooling- it should be easier to shorten charge time. I notice the BCQM1 (new one?) is 150 minutes, with 90 minute quickie. Of course, the 90 minutes probably shortens battery charge-discharge cycle life, but that’s my choice.

My Watson dual charger with 120 vac and 12 volt inputs works well; also about 3 hours. By my tests, Watson batteries do about 10% better life, which is in keeping with their maHr rating. But I get nervous about warranties and a rogue Watson battery. Note to Watson: maybe warranty the camera if your battery blows up in it?

Why the charger fuss? With four batteries, unless you want to get up in the middle of the night (think hotel) to swap batteries, you need to be able to charge 4 batteries at one go. With the grip, I don’t count the body charger (battery dance thing). I view it as a backup charger.

Never worried about chargers with my 1DX, 5D3 or D810. Truth be told, those chargers took up about the same room. It’s just that shorter battery life has made me think about it.

If the A7Rii is anything like the A7ii (I’ll know this winter!), then low temp ambient operation is non-existent. With the A7ii, I exited my car on a 20 degree F day and walked across a 600 foot parking lot. The battery went from 88% to 17%. Sony says to “keep them in your pocket”. I tried that. Well, with the battery out, whatever the power source is for date and time also quit from the cold. I had to go to the date-time menu before I could snap a picture. All of my cameras are specified for 32 F. I expect parametric (ie, shutter timing) shifts, not a brick wall. Sigh.

Other than that, it’s a great camera (no sarcasm intended). Besides, I’m enamored with the 35 / 1.4, the 55, the 90 mm macro lens, low light / shadow performance, and the in-body IS, which works very well.

If you don’t think I’m neurotic, help me to get Sony to ‘fix’ it. Or at least get Sony to explain why they did what they did. Maybe this is for video (not my thing)? If so, why not change the behavior when NOT in movie mode?

Anyway, try the tape thing- it helps.
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Telecaster

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Re: A7RM2 Battery Life, Chargers, the Nefarious Eye Sensor, and Mysteries
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2015, 02:42:28 pm »

My A7r2 bag contains nine batteries. Plus the one in the camera. They're small…when I go on a walk I carry two extras JIC in a pocket. I also have three chargers, one Sony & two third-party, that I can take on trips. Et voilà!

-Dave-
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bob162

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Re: A7RM2 Battery Life, Chargers, the Nefarious Eye Sensor, and Mysteries
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2015, 04:19:56 pm »

Hi Dave!
Didn't become obsessed with this until recently. Was taking some autumn foliage, hopped in the car and headed to the shore, about 1-1/2 hours. Camera on the seat in the bag, but with the body sticking up towards me. Must have been seeing my right arm moving. Kept re-triggering the timer. Was on Manual EVF, 1 minute sleep- didn't see it. Got to the shore, jumped out on a temporarily deserted overpass to take an pic, and- drum roll- battery was dead. Frantic rummaging in the bag to grab spares (cars heading towards me, had to give up). Went home and beat the eye sensor to death. Sigh.
Try the tape...
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AlterEgo

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Re: A7RM2 Battery Life, Chargers, the Nefarious Eye Sensor, and Mysteries
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2015, 05:19:52 pm »

CIPA- Rated at 290 ~ 340 shots. If you go to location A and knock off the shots at one go- especially with a tripod- this rating is for you. I get about 260 ~ 270. Not great, but manageable.

I managed >= 1000 (original Sony battery on > 10th cycle) and w/o any hysteria ...

A7RII, FE5518, airplane mode ON, pre AF off, viewfinder brightness auto, pwr save start time = 1min, autoreview = 5sec, monitor brightness = manual+minimal, display quality = standard, camera hangs like this :



so EVF can't be triggered from my belly  8)

and yes, I do not peer in EVF or LCD all the time, there is no need for that - I have eyes

PS: and I switch camera off too, I do not keep it on all the time...
« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 05:21:31 pm by AlterEgo »
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Tony Jay

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Re: A7RM2 Battery Life, Chargers, the Nefarious Eye Sensor, and Mysteries
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2015, 06:02:30 pm »

I managed >= 1000 (original Sony battery on > 10th cycle) and w/o any hysteria ...

A7RII, FE5518, airplane mode ON, pre AF off, viewfinder brightness auto, pwr save start time = 1min, autoreview = 5sec, monitor brightness = manual+minimal, display quality = standard, camera hangs like this :



so EVF can't be triggered from my belly  8)

and yes, I do not peer in EVF or LCD all the time, there is no need for that - I have eyes

PS: and I switch camera off too, I do not keep it on all the time...
Apart from switching off auto review this is pretty much what I do.
And yes, switch the camera off when not in use - even for a few minutes.

Tony Jay
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chez

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Re: A7RM2 Battery Life, Chargers, the Nefarious Eye Sensor, and Mysteries
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2015, 07:38:07 pm »

Got back from 3 weeks on Kauai. Photographed every day, mostly morning and evening. Carried 1 spare battery...only had to use it once. I turn off the camera when not taking photos. For my type of shooting, less than 500 shots per outing, I see no issue with batteries.
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Telecaster

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Re: A7RM2 Battery Life, Chargers, the Nefarious Eye Sensor, and Mysteries
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2015, 05:16:37 pm »

Yep, turning off the camera between shots saves power. But it also messes with my photography…the camera takes too long to power up again. Therefore I make power a non-issue via redundant batteries. For me it's the right way to go. YMMV.

-Dave-
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Manoli

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Re: A7RM2 Battery Life, Chargers, the Nefarious Eye Sensor, and Mysteries
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2015, 05:53:06 pm »

...  I make power a non-issue via redundant batteries.

Perhaps a charged Mophie powerstation XL would also have solved a few of the OP's problems. You can charge the A7x M2's in camera.

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bob162

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Re: A7RM2 Battery Life, Chargers, the Nefarious Eye Sensor, and Mysteries
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2015, 07:46:06 pm »

Yeah, I did turn the power on and off until Sony support advised me not to- it consumes a lot of power and is a negative sum game. Presumably something to do with sensor cleaning, but I'm not sure. Tried external mophie equivalent, but doesn't work with a grip. You have to take the batteries out of the grip and put them in the body one at a time, and wait for each to charge. Gave up on that. Yes more batteries works, but a more elegant solution is to simply decouple the sleep timer from the eye sensor. Solves a lot of problems. I agree start up time is long, and if you have manual EVF on, the camera wakes up to the monitor for a second or so, and then switches- which exaggerates the time. I wonder if Sony could just have it go directly to EVF? Another mystery.
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: A7RM2 Battery Life, Chargers, the Nefarious Eye Sensor, and Mysteries
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2015, 05:04:42 am »

Maybe it's just me, I don't know. But I just make sure I have my 3 batteries charged before I go out to shoot. So far, I have never been left stranded without power. If that ever happens, I will just get more batteries.

bob162

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Re: A7RM2 Battery Life, Chargers, the Nefarious Eye Sensor, and Mysteries
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2015, 07:18:03 pm »

Sure, more batteries fixes the 'problem', but it's a bit of a band aid. Decoupling the sleep timer from the eye sensor is far more... elegant. Besides, more batteries, more time (charging in a hotel), more things to manage. I can't help but wonder why Sony did what they did. My guess it's an oversight; they were probably fixated on CIPA ratings. If there is a purpose to it, I would sure like to know. I've been in hardware/software design for (too) many decades, and this is low hanging fruit.
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eronald

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Re: A7RM2 Battery Life, Chargers, the Nefarious Eye Sensor, and Mysteries
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2015, 08:21:13 pm »

Sure, more batteries fixes the 'problem', but it's a bit of a band aid. Decoupling the sleep timer from the eye sensor is far more... elegant. Besides, more batteries, more time (charging in a hotel), more things to manage. I can't help but wonder why Sony did what they did. My guess it's an oversight; they were probably fixated on CIPA ratings. If there is a purpose to it, I would sure like to know. I've been in hardware/software design for (too) many decades, and this is low hanging fruit.

Keep the comments coming - I'm sure everything you say here will be fixed in the next model.

Edmund
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: A7RM2 Battery Life, Chargers, the Nefarious Eye Sensor, and Mysteries
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2015, 05:54:11 am »

Keep the comments coming - I'm sure everything you say here will be fixed in the next model.

Or in the 5,000 US$ A9. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Telecaster

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Re: A7RM2 Battery Life, Chargers, the Nefarious Eye Sensor, and Mysteries
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2015, 05:13:57 pm »

Sure, more batteries fixes the 'problem', but it's a bit of a band aid.

I agree. But in the absence of an elegant fix the best thing IMO is to brute-force the issue into the abyss.  :)  I have an established routine for charging various gizmos & camera batteries so that's not a problem. And I'm already used to cameras w/ low-endurance batteries…my Epson R-D1, oft used from 2005–2012, managed ~50 shots per full charge on a good day with the rear LCD mostly off.

-Dave-
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bob162

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Re: A7RM2 Battery Life, Chargers, the Nefarious Eye Sensor, and Mysteries
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2015, 09:40:41 pm »

All Hail the Abyss! Good one. I had a Olympus Camedia E10/E20- a whopping 1.4 mpix (maybe circa late 90's?). I discovered 2200 ~ 2400 mahr NiMh AA batteries from some outfit in Florida (if memory serves), which gave me a whopping 20 ~ 22 shots, up from 12 or so on alkalines. I amassed a very large bag of those batteries! But, hey, the yardstick was a 24 shot film roll. So, not too shabby! My daughter recently dug it out and sent it to the Great Ebay in the Sky.

Back in the day, I was on the design team for the Polaroid Sonnar One Step (not on Polaroids's staff, but with a semiconductor vendor). My piece was the ultrasonic "auto focus" system, which morphed into the parking range sensors on your car. It took a while to get to automotive- the environmentally hardened sensor had to come in at a buck, and we were around $5. What's a few decades? Anyway, the camera had HUGE peak currents, but we were saved by the battery in each film pack and the limited number of shots per pack. There was so much paranoia over the current requirements that the battery was way oversized. Someone in the lab came up with a holder to turn it into a flashlight once the film was done. We all had a lifetime's supply of flashlights!

One of the other guys had the exposure system, which at the time was a tour de force. It was one of the first non- cad cell sensors; it was a real photodiode. All kinds of problems with that back then. The final qualification test was all the team and execs gathered around in the men's room, shut off the lights and took a picture in the mirror. The test was to see if the system could see the flash just going off- and it worked. The $3 million (ultimately $9 million) was well spent. Then the execs hopped on a plane to Puerto Rico, which for exposure part 2 had the supposed brightest beaches / white sand on earth. Likely story. The rest of us got a voucher for a restaurant and one of the first units off the assembly line- I think mine is number 8. I'm staring at it now. Ahh, memory lane....
Someday we'll be staring at a A7RM2 and thinking how quaint!
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Telecaster

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Re: A7RM2 Battery Life, Chargers, the Nefarious Eye Sensor, and Mysteries
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2015, 05:47:22 pm »

Back in the day, I was on the design team for the Polaroid Sonnar One Step (not on Polaroids's staff, but with a semiconductor vendor).

Neat-o! I remember those (though I stuck with my trusty rangefinder equipped SX-70).  :D

Quote
Someday we'll be staring at a A7RM2 and thinking how quaint!

Yeah. I had a look at my old Amiga 3000 while cleaning earlier this week. Floppy drives, serial & parallel ports and a massive 20 megabyte internal hard drive. But it was a speedy graphics powerhouse in 1990!

-Dave-
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bob162

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Re: A7RM2 Battery Life, Chargers, the Nefarious Eye Sensor, and Mysteries
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2015, 07:53:39 pm »

Whoa! Was that about the time 8" floppies 'progressed' to 5-1/4"? A subsequent project to the camera was an industrial sensor. I had to cue up at Toys R Us to get a Commodore 64. We paid handsomely for a Panasonic 9 pin dot matrix printer to graph the product stability results. Even better, some of the code had to be migrated from a TRS-80 (genuflecting in Radio Shack's direction) that had the entire product's design on a cassette tape (the TRS-80's preferred storage medium). You haven't lived until you had to hit a physical 'rewind' button when a sector needed to be re-read. The 64 let us go to whopping floppy speeds and a color monitor! Plus, who could deny the appeal of shopping for a computer in a toy store! Woo-hoo!
There's more tech in the A7 eye sensor than in that total rig. But it doesn't smell as good as a freshly opened box of 8" floppies!
Cheers! Bob
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Telecaster

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Re: A7RM2 Battery Life, Chargers, the Nefarious Eye Sensor, and Mysteries
« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2015, 02:31:53 pm »

Whoa! Was that about the time 8" floppies 'progressed' to 5-1/4"?

Hehe, no, the Amiga started off with 3.5" floppies like the Mac. Of course those disks aren't really "floppy" in terms of handling. Different smell too.  ;)

Quote
…some of the code had to be migrated from a TRS-80 (genuflecting in Radio Shack's direction) that had the entire product's design on a cassette tape (the TRS-80's preferred storage medium). You haven't lived until you had to hit a physical 'rewind' button when a sector needed to be re-read.

A friend & I co-owned a TraSH-80 c. 1978-9. The Kodak Brownie of computers! Had a blast porting my drag racer construction code, originally written in FORTRAN for IBM's 1130 system, to it.

-Dave-
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AFairley

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Re: A7RM2 Battery Life, Chargers, the Nefarious Eye Sensor, and Mysteries
« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2015, 09:07:56 pm »

Hmmm.  I started out with a Timex Sinclair.  I lusted after the Commodore 64, but could not afford it.
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bob162

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Re: A7RM2 Battery Life, Chargers, the Nefarious Eye Sensor, and Mysteries
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2015, 06:59:32 pm »

Holy Punch Card! I remember circa 1969 ~ 70 having a foray into Fortran, punch cards, and a vague recollection of paper tape. And, of course, the de-facto unnamed person(s) who 'rearranged the punch cards just before submitting' prank.
I am bowing in your direction- I am humbled. Porting over the code- You da Man!
And there was a guy I knew reasonably well who submitted a cardboard computer (about 1 foot on a side; well done, I might add) with a firecracker inside and a glow plug wired to a switch for his final project. The 'walls' were held together with elastic bands wrapped around said cracker. I witnessed the construction. He blew it up in class. When all our ears stopped ringing, the prof- completely unfazed- picked up a semi burned piece of cardboard, wrote 'F-' on it and handed it back to Patterson. Patterson then excused himself, saddled up his VW micro bus and left town (Boston).
And Sinclair! I remember touching one and the rest is a blur. It was the 70's...
Don't feel bad about not affording the 64- it was a Fortune 500 company that sent me to Toys R Us! I also know the company paid WAY more for the dot matrix printer than the computer. Accounting had a field day with the Toys R Us receipts- it was a 'first'.
Its amazing how an inelegant battery 'problem' ends up in a pleasant twist down memory lane.
Thanks!
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