Grand Canyon Daytime

[concertworks]

Good job Alain.  Your final image is well done as is the technique used to realize it.  However I think your definitions are somewhat deceptive.  With reference to your quote of him I would reply that Aristotle said many things but I believe his greatest emphasis was OBJECTIVITY.  A is A, his "Law of Identity".

I make photographs of things I have a particular personal response to, emotional or rational, and am thereby an interpreter.  The objective part is that I have recorded a moment in time.  The moment; unique, of itself.  What I saw, what others may have or will see then or some other time.  If I, in a darkroom or on a computer, manipulate a photograph to compensate for contrast, lens flare or other technically deficient aspects I do so only because my eyes see so much more than the camera can record.  What I will not do is compromise the moment by the addition or subtraction of anything that was or was not present in that moment.  Were I to do so I would then become a photo-renderer.  Nothing wrong with that of course but the distinction is clear - to present what was originally a daytime scene as a morning scene is deceptive, even if only I know it.  What would your blurb read beside such a print hung in a gallery?  Aristotle also wrote that "reality is absolute".  Is it?

Do you truly think a documentary photo can't be artistic?  Moonrise Over Hernandez for example; what could be more documentary?  But it is truly a work of art because Mr. Adams saw the combination of elements, composed, exposed and printed it in such a way as to capture the essence of a moment through his own personal vision.  As a b/w picture it's highly interpretive, the printing adds to the impact as well but at its core is the moment.

The debate about what is/is not art is old and boring in its ultimate meaning.  I mean, who cares?  It's just a label so folk can identify something in a relative manner.  For the record, to me, art is any personal act of creativity.  Any.  But it's moot nonetheless.  In your teaching role I would hope you would encourage personal creativity and soft-pedal the art thing.  Your collaged image is a good example that of as a goal - to express yourself.  Use the tools at your disposal to realize your vision.  But honour your subject by trying to capture it's essence in that moment instead of guessing at it at a later date.

I think traditional photography has evolved in a manner adverse to the moment.  I used to look at pictures and try to feel the moment.  I don't anymore because it seems less important than the "art" of the picture.  Shame really.

[johnvr]

I've been thinking about Alain's article and cannot help but think that Alain should call himself a businessman first and artist second. He has created an image depicting a reality that he himself says never will exist and I don't think he has done that so much as an artist, but as a smart photographer who knows what sells.

By further telling us that all of his images are manipulated, it's clear that reality is never good enough for Alain. I'm wondering if it's not good enough because the medium can't capture what the eye sees, or because the artist thinks he can improve on reality or because the businessman knows manipulated images are the ones that sell best.

[Paulo Bizarro]

I was interested in this article, because I faced similar issues when living (and photographing) in Oman. Where there are abundant canyons that during the golden and blue hours are in the shade. So often I would do a similar thing, just boosted contrast, saturation, and colour, to add a bit more interest and get rid of the washed-out look in the photos. It does not work every time though, especially with strong heat and haze. I was never able to create "art", whatever that means.

I have said it before, over time, I have been reading Alain's articles and admiring his work on the Southwest USA, since his film days. He was an early adopter of digital, I remember a piece he wrote about using a Powershot S50 to quickly scout and register possible locations for later shooting. But I do agree that with time, has he has become a successful photographer, I find his articles more heavy on the "selling" part. Which is fine, he is not tricking anyone or lying about what he does, and about how he manipulates his images.

[kencameron]

Maybe it is my monitor, or my eyesight, or my poor taste. The end result of all the undoubtedly expert postprocessing here looked to me - before I read the text - just plain ugly, and nothing like any sunset I have ever seen. More like something you would find on the lid of a tin of overpriced biscuits. I am wondering if anyone else had a similar "emperor's new clothes" reaction.

[Tony Jay]

Maybe it is my monitor, or my eyesight, or my poor taste. The end result of all the undoubtedly expert postprocessing here looked to me - before I read the text - just plain ugly, and nothing like any sunset I have ever seen. More like something you would find on the lid of a tin of overpriced biscuits. I am wondering if anyone else had a similar "emperor's new clothes" reaction.

Not to be too argumentative but I don't think that a sunset was the objective - just middle to late afternoon - and in that Alain doesn't do a bad job.
Having lived in an environment that is pretty dry for a lot of the year that sky and the light portrayed is pretty plausible.

Tony Jay

[jeremyrh]

I think this article should be read in conjuction with the Voice in a Landscape article.

[kencameron]

Feedback appeciated, and I certainly don't want to argue. De gustibus non est disputandum. Your points about late afternoon versus sunset, and dry environments (in which I have also lived), while well made,  make no difference at all to my actual response of subtle distaste when I look again at the image. I guess I respond to (what I consider) too much saturation in images in the same way as to (what I consider) too much sugar in food. And I do think that nature can get away with saturation in a way which photographers can't. But, as I implied in my post, that is surely just me. Alain B deserves his high reputation.

[Tony Jay]

Feedback appeciated, and I certainly don't want to argue. De gustibus non est disputandum. Your points about late afternoon versus sunset, and dry environments (in which I have also lived), while well made,  make no difference at all to my actual response of subtle distaste when I look again at the image. I guess I respond to (what I consider) too much saturation in images in the same way as to (what I consider) too much sugar in food. And I do think that nature can get away with saturation in a way which photographers can't. But, as I implied in my post, that is surely just me. Alain B deserves his high reputation.

No issues with the fact that the result doesn't gel with you.

Tony Jay

[AreBee]

Tony,

...I don't think that a sunset was the objective - just middle to late afternoon

How this photograph was made: Grand Canyon Daytime or how to get sunrise / sunset colors in daytime photographs

Having lived in an environment that is pretty dry for a lot of the year that sky and the light portrayed is pretty plausible.

Do you consider the sky in Alain's photo to be compatible with the effect of sunset/sunrise on the land?

[Tony Jay]

Tony,



Do you consider the sky in Alain's photo to be compatible with the effect of sunset/sunrise on the land?

No.
The angle of the shadows clearly indicates a different time.

Tony Jay

[GrahamBy]

Don't give a fig for authenticity, don't know what art is, but don't like the effect of the processing. Just one guy's taste.

[stamper]

Don't give a fig for authenticity, don't know what art is, but don't like the effect of the processing. Just one guy's taste.

A good point!

[kencameron]

It is interesting to read that "saturated but during daylight" is only fit for the lid of a can of sardines but somehow "saturated at dusk" is not?

If I put a polarizer on a lens for a daytime shot and it gets the expected deep blues "out of camera" with no fancy color adjustments, is it therefore not fit for more than the biscuit tin lid?

If an image can be considered attractive because it is saturated, does it matter when it is taken?

And if an artist depends on photography as their business, why shouldn't they develop methods that deliver successful and sustaining images? And if they are successful, why shouldn't they let others know what works for them and helps them succeed?

Seriously... there are a bunch of petty comments here.

I am not sure what comments you are referring to, but if mine, then you haven't read them attentively. I don't personally like what I consider to be an oversaturated look. This, as I made clear, is just my reaction. I wondered if anyone shared it and am interested to discover that someone does, but most don't.

My reaction has nothing to do either with the time of day the image was taken or with the time of day it was intended to reproduce. As I said, my reaction of subtle but unequivocal distaste was unaffected by finding out that the post processing aimed for a late afternoon rather than a sunset look. The image simply looked "wrong" to me. I have no problem with post processing as such, or with your preference for polaroid filters rather than post processing in some circumstances.

As for Alain Briot, I have nothing but respect for his business success and his teaching activities. Surely that was clear from my second post.

Seriously...are you sure your last sentence added value to what, up until then, had been an intelligent discussion?

[AreBee]

dreed,

To compare my emotional reaction to Alain's two images, in the "out of camera", it is "meh, don't care much for it." In the one that is post-processed, it is "cool, I want to be there."

Steel yourself for disappointment.

[Colorado David]

No one who has ever stood on the rim of the Grand Canyon has ever been disappointed. Regardless of the light, time of day, or time of year, the scene is simply breathtaking.

[kencameron]

My preference is for images to have color because we live in a world filled with color. Why would I want to look at images that are flat and without life? They rarely inspire me or create any desire... if anything, I want more colors in images because I want them to look alive and feel alive. Why limit yourself to using just that part of the color palette that has unsaturated colors? What a terrible jail to be in!

Fair enough and well said. But then, do you think that more is always better as far as saturation is concerned so that there is no such thing as "oversaturated"? I have no beef with color or with the saturation slider, I just think they need to be used with restraint and taste, and in my perception, AB does not always do this - since first contributing to this thread I have looked at other work by him on line and reacted in the same way, as if to something not quite right because overdone. But, as I have said, that may be just me, plenty of good judges don't seem to feel the same way. It also occurred to me that I might react differently to his images when seen full size as prints. What interests here is the extent to which, and the ways in which, such judgements are subjective.

[Colorado David]

I remember looking at Alain's work on the porch of one of the lodges at the South Rim of the Grand Canyon.  This was many years ago now.  I was impressed by what I saw.  My daughter bought a print from him; a square format print of a rainbow over the canyon.  This was long enough ago it would have all been film and wet darkroom.  It was sufficiently saturated.  Just the right amount.  I'm guessing it might have been shot with Velvia. 

[stamper]

It is all subjective so there is little point in criticising someone else's taste. If someone likes subtly and another garish then so be it.

[jeremyrh]

It is possible to oversaturate an image, most definitely.

The trick is working out the right saturation for an image.

What's more important: the perspective of judges at a competition or that of customers that pay to own a print and hang in their homes?

Important to whom? I imagine that the customers are in the first instance more important to AB, in a Maslow sense, since they put food on his table. Personally I wouldn't put this print, or any similar one, on my wall at any price, even to cover a particularly nasty stain. I suspect AB is not losing sleep over my opinion, but I would be surprised if, once well-fed, he didn't care at all for the opinion of his peers.

[stamper]

The posted image was there as an exercise with regards to post processing. It isn't - I haven't seen all of his prints - one of his best and if it had been I suspect it wouldn't need the "treatment" outlined. Alain seems to receive a lot of negative feedback, quite wrongly imo and I hope he isn't discouraged by this thread.