Olympus EM-1 IS issue

[GLJ]

I do not suggest you to believe - I suggest you first to read the relevant topics in dpreview m43 forum

I suggest you read more yourself. Since you like DPR, have a look at this:

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/4134393686/olympus-updates-om-d-e-m1-with-electronic-first-curtain-anti-shock

The bit in the URL that says "olympus-updates-om-d-e-m1-with-electronic-first-curtain-anti-shock" might be a bit of a giveaway that you are wrong.

for Panasonic sensor used in E-M1 ( http://chipworks.force.com/catalog/ProductDetails?sku=OLY-E-M1_Pri-Camera ) = http://www.semicon.panasonic.co.jp/ds4/MN34230PL_E.pdf = "Electronic shutter (Full scan) : Full scan 10bit mode (22.5 fps) 1 / 22.5s 1 / 81300 s (1/81300 s step)"

this is an official sensor documentation from Panasonic

now camera's firmware might try to mask that when writing the raw, but 10bit is what sensor output - at least what Panasonic itself is saying

as for E-M5 mk II or GX7 - do they use Panasonic 16mp or Sony 16mp sensor ? both exist ...

Most people believe the GX7 uses the MN34230 sensor. The same as used in the GM1 and EM1 and GH4.
The GM1 & GH4 drop to 10bit mode in e-shutter. The GX7 remains at 12bit.
I've had this argument with someone else here many months ago, because if you look at the datasheet you linked to it shows that the sensor has both a 10 and a 12 bit output mode, and I argued that just because the e-shutter field only quotes the (fast) 10 bit readout speed, this doesn't necessarily mean that you cannot configure the chip to ALSO do e-shutter in 12 bit mode (albeit with a slower readout speed). Whoever I was arguing with tried to use the conclusive data that the GH4 was 10bit in e-shutter, as conclusive proof that the MN34230 chip can ONLY do 10 bit. This is flawed logic.
If the GX7 does indeed use the same chip, then the fact that its been shown that it does actually operate in a slower 12bit e-shutter mode means I was correct, an that person as well was wrong.
But we do need to be 100% sure of what sensor is in the GX7, and I'm not aware of any teardown that has been done on that camera.
As for the EM1, well we'll have to wait and see. My point was that its not a dead certainty it will be a 10bit e-shutter mode. There is enough evidence to cast doubt on that assumption. Maybe it will be, maybe it won't.

[AlterEgo]

I suggest you read more yourself. Since you like DPR, have a look at this:

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/4134393686/olympus-updates-om-d-e-m1-with-electronic-first-curtain-anti-shock


The bit in the URL that says "olympus-updates-om-d-e-m1-with-electronic-first-curtain-anti-shock" might be a bit of a giveaway that you are wrong.

and I really suggest you to read the reasech done by users who tested what is really going on with shutter blades after that firmware update was released, instead of PR releases.

[AlterEgo]

Most people believe the GX7 uses the MN34230 sensor. The same as used in the GM1 and EM1 and GH4...GM1 & GH4 drop to 10bit mode in e-shutter. The GX7 remains at 12bit.

it may be so, but you "believe" too much in various things ... with E-M1 we know (instead of "believing") for sure what was the sensor (thanks to ChipWorks) and the topic is about E-M1... GX7 might as well be using a different revision of the sensor or Sony sensor, etc - we don't know for sure, unless you produce something other than "beliefs"... and one might logically ask a question as to why a flagship GH4 has 10bit when lowish GH7 maintain 12bit for still imaging with electronic rolling shutter with the same sensor and GH4 having no less powerful everything else and GH4 released _after_ GX7 on top of that ? why step back, why cripple GH4 - unless GX7 has a different sensor with different electronic rolling shutter output ? DxOMark shows quite different results for GH4 vs GX7 too

I've had this argument with someone else here many months ago, because if you look at the datasheet you linked to it shows that the sensor has both a 10 and a 12 bit output mode, and I argued that just because the e-shutter field only quotes the (fast) 10 bit readout speed, this doesn't necessarily mean that you cannot configure the chip to ALSO do e-shutter in 12 bit mode (albeit with a slower readout speed).

and why 'd Panasonic not list 12bit electronic rolling shutter mode in its documentation - not logical to omit a feature that is present to be used

Whoever I was arguing with tried to use the conclusive data that the GH4 was 10bit in e-shutter, as conclusive proof that the MN34230 chip can ONLY do 10 bit. This is flawed logic.

like yours based on the "belief" that GX7 has the same sensor and that datasheet omitted an electronic rolling shutter mode (not to mix with non electronic rolling shutter modes) present in sensor

If the GX7 does indeed use the same chip, then the fact that its been shown that it does actually operate in a slower 12bit e-shutter mode means I was correct, an that person as well was wrong.

if my grandmother had balls... or what is the proper wording in English ?

[GLJ]

and I really suggest you to read the reasech done by users who tested what is really going on with shutter blades after that firmware update was released, instead of PR releases.

Lets see. We'll do a quick google on "EM-1" and "Electronic first curtain" shall we.
Oh look. Its not Just DPR mentioning it, its also:
Imaging resource, DigLloyd, Ming Thein, etc etc etc. In fact, EVERYBODY. Every single web site. Except you.
And oh look. Also, Robin Wong, who says "The 0 second anti shock basically used First Curtain Electronic Shutter". And he's an Olympus Employee. Right.
So either they are all Aholes who have been taken in by erroneous PR releases .... or the Ahole is you.
I know which one my money would be on. The onus is now on you to prove otherwise and that the EM1 does not in fact use EFCS.

[Ted Kahn]

Got it
Thanks for your patience.
Don't know why I didn't think to look in the ISO menu

Set to 0
Now to shoot the test

Mark

In addition to choosing Anti-Shock 0sec in the "E" menu, you also have to go into the drive mode menu (the front button on the top left of the camera, near the power switch) and choose the single-frame shooting icon with the diamond next to it. If you choose one of the modes that doesn't have a diamond, the anti-shock feature won't be activated.

[GLJ]

Also, a drop to 10bit Raw is not a certainty

Just to dig up this thread from a couple of months ago. To recap, AlterEgo stated quite categorically that the EM1 does not have an Electronic front curtain shutter mode, and also that when the new firmware was released to give a full e-shutter mode, this would drop the sensor output to 10 bit mode.
He was wrong about the EFCS, and now we know that he was also wrong about the drop to 10bit. It remains as a 12 bit file.

I confess there is a certain satisfaction in being able to say, "I told you so" 

Perhaps I should also trawl back through some even older threads, since I recall having an equally unpleasant argument with other people here, who were trying to tell me point blank that the quoted panasonic MN34230 data sheet for the sensor used in the GH4/EM1 showed categorically that e-shutter was ONLY possible in 10bit mode - and I argued back then that it was probably a programmable chip, and that the (very limited) data sheet was only stating the headline figure of 10bit as it gave the fastest readout.
Its all looking very likely that Panasonic COULD provide the GH4 with a 12 bit e-shutter mode if they wanted.

[AlterEgo]

Just to dig up this thread from a couple of months ago. To recap, AlterEgo stated quite categorically that the EM1 does not have an Electronic front curtain shutter mode, and also that when the new firmware was released to give a full e-shutter mode, this would drop the sensor output to 10 bit mode.
He was wrong about the EFCS, and now we know that he was also wrong about the drop to 10bit. It remains as a 12 bit file.

I was not wrong about EFCS, EM-1 does not have true EFCS - operation like in Sony cameras for exаmple (which do not employ tricks like 25ms delay to fight shutter shock)... also as noted the sensor used in E-M1 is 10bit in electronic shutter (Full scan) - which is a __rolling shutter__ (as in video, just with full sensor readout) mode when mechanical shutter is not used at all... just to give you an idea - using EFCS does not mean that sensor is operating in electronic shutter mode... take Sony sensors - when I use EFCS, single shot I have "13bit" raws, when I use silent shutter = electronic shutter (no EFCS naturally) mode I am dropping one bit.

[GLJ]

I was not wrong about EFCS, EM-1 does not have true EFCS - operation like in Sony cameras for exаmple (which do not employ tricks like 25ms delay to fight shutter shock)... also as noted the sensor used in E-M1 is 10bit in electronic shutter (Full scan) - which is a __rolling shutter__ (as in video, just with full sensor readout) mode when mechanical shutter is not used at all... just to give you an idea - using EFCS does not mean that sensor is operating in electronic shutter mode... take Sony sensors - when I use EFCS, single shot I have "13bit" raws, when I use silent shutter = electronic shutter (no EFCS naturally) mode I am dropping one bit.

There are two seperate issues. One is the EFCS, the other is e-shutter.

You are still wrong about the EFCS not being a 'true' EFCS. Its just that because the shutter mechanism was not designed in the first place to properly accommodate the ideal mechanical operation, Olympus have ALSO put in a delay. But putting in this additional delay does NOT mean that the EFCS is somehow false as you implied. Its just not as optimal an overall implementation.

The second point was you insisted the e-shutter mode (the new one that Olympus calls 'silent') would drop to 10bit. I said this wasn't a certainty. I was right. You were wrong. The e-shutter mode is (thankfully) still 12 bit.

[AlterEgo]

You are still wrong about the EFCS not being a 'true' EFCS. Its just that because the shutter mechanism was not designed in the first place to properly accommodate the ideal mechanical operation, Olympus have ALSO put in a delay. But putting in this additional delay does NOT mean that the EFCS is somehow false as you implied. Its just not as optimal an overall implementation.

EFCS is a combined operation of sensor and mechanical shutter... so once one thing is not operated as it should you do not have it

The second point was you insisted the e-shutter mode (the new one that Olympus calls 'silent') would drop to 10bit. I said this wasn't a certainty. I was right. You were wrong. The e-shutter mode is (thankfully) still 12 bit.

and proof is ?