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Author Topic: Adobe's Tom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release  (Read 31503 times)

Stephen Starkman

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Adobe's Tom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« on: October 09, 2015, 08:44:28 pm »

For what it's worth, if you haven't seen this yet:

http://blogs.adobe.com/lightroomjournal/2015/10/lightroom-6-2-release-update-and-apology.html

- Stephen

(user since beta days)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 11:39:03 am by Stephen L Starkman »
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TomFrerichs

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Re: Adobe's Thom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2015, 10:40:50 pm »

It's a fine apology, and I'm willing to believe a sincere one as well. I'm still cynical enough to believe that the quick response was driven mostly by the large negative response to this release. Certainly this communication is significantly different in tone from some of the other releases coming from Adobe.

I'm hopeful that Adobe will take a much closer look at how this release was driven. Mr. Hogarty wrote, "Lightroom was created in 2006 via a 14 month public beta in a dialog with the photography community.  In making these changes without a broader dialog I’ve failed the original core values of the product and the team." There apparently was no dialog with the community at large, at least I haven't heard anyone claim they were consulted. On the other hand, if I had been one of those consulted I sure wouldn't admit it now. (grin)

I'm also hopeful that Adobe will consider that listening to their "customers, educators and research team" didn't provide good feedback.  Again, I'm cynical enough to believe that "customers" were those that called for technical support, "educators" were a very small subset of the people who write books and train users in LR, and "research team" were folks who used terribly flawed sampling techniques to try to define the future of the product.

Above all I'm hopeful Adobe will truly take this flawed release to heart. They should be very mindful that one of the more popular posts on photoshop.com regarding these issues, particularly the changed import function, congratulated the LR development team on their work and exclaimed that sales were up 15%.  The poster signed it using "Capture One"  What's sad for Adobe is that this implied threat of converting to a different product is coming closer to reality for many people.
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Stephen Starkman

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Re: Adobe's Thom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2015, 11:18:23 pm »

Also see Sharad Mangalick's post on Oct 7 (he's senior product manager, digital imaging, Adobe) where he discussed the "context" of why changes were made to the import interface.

http://blogs.adobe.com/lightroomjournal/2015/10/update-on-lightroom-2015-2-lightroom-6-2-release.html

So who did they consult with to rationalize the change? According to Sharad's post, first time users.

"We visited them in their homes..."

I can't help to think they should have visited more folks in their studios.

I do think Thom's apology is sincere.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 11:20:11 pm by Stephen L Starkman »
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ButchM

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Re: Adobe's Thom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2015, 11:22:00 pm »

I'm also hopeful that Adobe will consider that listening to their "customers, educators and research team" didn't provide good feedback.  Again, I'm cynical enough to believe that "customers" were those that called for technical support, "educators" were a very small subset of the people who write books and train users in LR, and "research team" were folks who used terribly flawed sampling techniques to try to define the future of the product.

I agree ... it is more than apparent that the Lr Management Team did not receive enough data to base their decision making on. I fully understand that they really can't efficiently conduct a full public beta on each and every version of Lr ... but you don't have to be Einstein to realize that the pool of influence they are currently using in the private alpha and beta testing is likely not large enough and/or diverse enough to offer reliable data for them to consider.

This situation is rather predictable human behavior. When you facilitate the rise and support of a company to the point of such great success to the point the business becomes a pseudo monopoly, those in charge will develop a sense of superiority and a level of confidence that they can't make mistakes or misjudgments ... and if they do, they won't suffer any serious financial injury as they have a large enough customer base to withstand any short term repercussions.

I hope this situation truly does bring Mr. Hogarty and his team back to reality. Though, they have a huge task ahead of them to earn back the trust they squandered this week.
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Rory

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Re: Adobe's Thom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2015, 11:35:31 pm »

Personally I think it was a rather lame apology, where he seems to worry about failing to communicate why they were making the changes to the import module rather than admitting they broke many users workflows by removing functionality.  I'm not totally convinced he really "gets" it yet and he only promised to talk, not to fix the immediate problem.  One thing it totally clear and that is the lack of common sense in the Lightroom management.
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BAB

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Re: Adobe's Thom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2015, 11:42:43 pm »

If feedback was offered to a larger group of users I sure it would be more beneficial than the chosen few Alfa or beta testers whom have a work around for annoyances. I also think Adobe should put out a public poll by categories so users could vote on modules and what in the modules they want or what changes they would like to see to existing menu items. This would present Adobe with a list of clean up tasks and a list of most wanted new features. Imagine you been an Alfa tester or beta tester foe years how much support or time are really giving the new software changes, more than likely your just glancing at the latest changes.
For example in Photoshop WHY does Adobe refuse to let us change the color of PATH? Try pathing grey on grey! It's like pouring green water into a bucket of green water and trying to keep the green water your pouring in the bucket separate from what's in there already! What don't the engineers get about the need for a choice of colored paths?

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Rory

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Re: Adobe's Thom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2015, 11:49:35 pm »

If feedback was offered to a larger group of users I sure it would be more beneficial than the chosen few Alfa or beta testers whom have a work around for annoyances. I also think Adobe should put out a public poll by categories so users could vote on modules and what in the modules they want or what changes they would like to see to existing menu items. This would present Adobe with a list of clean up tasks and a list of most wanted new features.

They already have this in the feedback forums where you can vote on enhancements, or recently, on boneheaded changes.  I don't remember seeing a lot of votes for dumbing down the import module.  To be fair, they have gone ahead with some of the high vote items like face recognition.

I think the right approach is a combination of putting priority on highly requested items and giving the lightroom engineers a say in what they would like to add, as they have a unique perspective and have to do the work.  They just need someone in management with some common sense to be the conductor.
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ButchM

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Re: Adobe's Thom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2015, 12:24:48 am »

They already have this in the feedback forums where you can vote on enhancements, or recently, on boneheaded changes.  I don't remember seeing a lot of votes for dumbing down the import module.  To be fair, they have gone ahead with some of the high vote items like face recognition.

Yes, there is a feedback forum ... but often it is putting the cart in front of the horse as with this instance, the team and management made drastic changes, then stuck their finger in the air to see which way the wind was blowing.

As for voting for new/suggested features on the feedback forum ... your odds are better you would survive a round of Russian Roulette than have your voice heard ...
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ButchM

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Re: Adobe's Thom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2015, 12:30:50 am »

Personally I think it was a rather lame apology ...

I have my doubts too as to the true level of sincerity offered ... I'm sure Hogarty believes he is being sincere, but I have also witnessed him roll his eyes in the past when users ask him questions about product development and express their desires ... at times, one could easily interpret his expressions and body language ... and occasionally his words ... may indicate he isn't listening as closely or actually cares as much as he would have us believe ... or that we mere mortals just don't get it.
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jrp

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Re: Adobe's Thom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2015, 06:35:42 am »

The more disturbing revelation in the post is that they released this with a known, but hard to reproduce "crasher" bug. Who signed off that decision? This is unacceptable in the context of a subscription service. Why should I have to research the Internet before deciding whether to take an update that is offered. Should I not have the right to expect that it meets some basic quality standards?  This is especially true of mature software the Lightroom, where you should just expect tweaks and bug fixes (notable by their absence in this case) in a point release.

He also claims that they removed some little-used features in the desire to remove clutter, a laudable aim. But the fact that you ever change the eject card box, does not mean that it is little used.

I can appreciate that the import screen is daunting and hard to parse. It is exactly for such a scenario that Microsoft "invented" wizards. Once you have established your basic settings with the wizard, you would use either a simplified workflow based on them, or you could tweak using a full fat "scary" screen, before doing so. Simply Trying to put makeup and lipstick on the pig is not the answer.
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pegelli

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Re: Adobe's Thom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2015, 06:56:41 am »

Quote from: Thom Hogarty
Our customers, educators and research team have been clear on this topic: The import experience in Lightroom is daunting.
I wonder where removing lots of options was on the customer provided list of feature requests. I couldn't find it there.

What would have been the problem with a user preference driven import screen: one (for new/overwhelmed users) with less options like 6.2 and one (for heritage/more advanced users) as in 6.1 and earlier.

When I bought my 6.0 perpetual license several month ago I knew exactly what I bought, i.e. existing functionality, bug fixes and support for new cameras. Not getting dehaze was fair in my mind (despite the outcry of some users) but taking away functionality just feels wrong as part of that deal. An apology doesn't cut it, Adobe has to give back what I bought from them at that time.
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ButchM

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Re: Adobe's Thom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2015, 09:07:38 am »


...The import experience in Lightroom is daunting....

If the previous Import dialog was indeed so daunting, how did Lightroom ever attain it's current level of adoption? I am personally acquainted with several hundred Lightroom users who I have worked with, for and even trained many over the past decade. That group is not what I would refer to as Mensa all-stars by far. I don't say that to be insulting, only to reference that the average Lr user is mostly that a average person who care about their photography.

Secondly, if any new user who does find the Import dialog that troubling ... and after watching one of the fine video tutorials by Julianne Kost still doesn't get it ... No amount of UI redesign, simplification or feature removal is going to result in offering a feasible solution.
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: Adobe's Thom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2015, 09:36:32 am »

Having been a LightRoom user from the very first version, I would normally have done the update close to immediately, on the naïve assumption that it would consist only of minor bug fixes and perhaps slight performance improvements.

I now am most grateful to the Fates that I was away when 6.1 appeared, so I could read about the storm of protests when I got back. And 6.2 still seems to be seriously flawed.

Until and unless I read on LuLa that Adobe has restored the "little used" features and import dialog of 6.0, whether alone or as an option, I fear that 6.0 will be my last version of LightRoom.

I have no objection to a "LightRoom Elements" or "Beginner LightRoom" as a parallel product, but I don't want my LightRoom dumbed down to the kindergarten level.
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MBehrens

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Re: Adobe's Thom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2015, 09:57:10 am »

Eric makes the point that I'm seeing here. Lightroom will have to be split into a Standard and Pro versions. Any attempt they make to meet the middle ground for both groups will fail miserably, as we have seen with this latest release. Adobe knows this, they are just playing out the current platform as long as possible. Be prepared for a jump in price to go to the Pro version... Maybe a network version would be included in the Pro options, but that is a huge leap from the current product and I'd not hold my breathe.
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jjj

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Re: Adobe's Thom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2015, 10:51:11 am »

Secondly, if any new user who does find the Import dialog that troubling ... and after watching one of the fine video tutorials by Julianne Kost still doesn't get it ... No amount of UI redesign, simplification or feature removal is going to result in offering a feasible solution.
Spot on.

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Simon Garrett

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Re: Adobe's Thom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2015, 11:04:30 am »

Secondly, if any new user who does find the Import dialog that troubling ... and after watching one of the fine video tutorials by Julianne Kost still doesn't get it ... No amount of UI redesign, simplification or feature removal is going to result in offering a feasible solution.

Well, kind of.  I once opened the packaging for some IT equipment and there was a slip taped to it saying "If all else fails, try reading the instructions."

Many people don't read the instructions, nor watch the fine video tutorials.  You could say they deserve all the trouble they get and maybe should rot in hell, but software providers can't take that attitude.  They have to cater for all customers, including the ones that don't read the instructions.  They can't afford to alienate new users, or they won't get sales. 

I completely agree that it's very frustrating for experienced users to feel that a user interface and functionality have been dumbed-down for the hard-of-thinking.  Adobe don't want to alienate experienced users either, or they lose the brand value of being a power-user's product. 

Adobe has to try to steer a fine line in providing a multi-layer UI that is intuitive enough for those that don't read instructions while being powerful enough not to frustrate power users. 

In this case, IMHO they probably failed on multiple levels, as Tom Hogarty's apology seems to accept. 
« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 11:08:40 am by Simon Garrett »
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AFairley

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Re: Adobe's Tom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2015, 12:10:05 pm »

For what it's worth, if you haven't seen this yet:

http://blogs.adobe.com/lightroomjournal/2015/10/lightroom-6-2-release-update-and-apology.html

- Stephen

(user since beta days)

IMO, the "apology" is only for not communicating the import changes ahead of time, there is no indication that anyone at Adobe thinks there's anything wrong with the changes.
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ButchM

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Re: Adobe's Thom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2015, 01:30:51 pm »


Adobe has to try to steer a fine line in providing a multi-layer UI that is intuitive enough for those that don't read instructions while being powerful enough not to frustrate power users. 


Well ... Hogarty more or less admitted they made decisions based upon either incomplete or inaccurate criteria ... you'll excuse me if I also question their desire to attract a less capable market segment (their assessment, not mine) I am having great difficulty in recognizing the wisdom of making such sweeping changes to attract this segment. If these potential customers have no desire to delve into at least a modicum of proper training and/or self-education ... is this segment going to stand the test of time to stick with the process and contribute to Adobe's coffers over the long haul? Or are they going to lose interest in a relative short term and move onto the next fad? Are all these sweeping adjustments worthy of effort for the long term?

The list of folks I have met over the past half-century who were once "really into photography" and now could care less, is quite extensive. It is a constant moving target to keep this group's attention for more than a relative fleeting moment. Which doesn't bode well if Adobe paints themselves into a corner trying to lock them in.

It's rather silly to expect if new folks can't quite balance their bicycle that everyone else must use training wheels so as not to offend those who can't quite achieve balance due to a lack of effort.

Quote
In this case, IMHO they probably failed on multiple levels, as Tom Hogarty's apology seems to accept.

Sorry, but the more I ponder this 'apology' the more I doubt just how much Hogarty actually 'accepts' ... It's going to take more than a few words from anyone at Adobe for me to feel even remotely reassured that they have their current customers best interests at heart. There has been a developing pattern of behavior and decision making that is slowly spiraling in a downward fashion where they expect their customers to blindly follow them wherever they choose to go.

I begrudge no business the desire to grow their market segment. It's actually the obligation of every business. I can and do take exception when the method employed to achieve that goal is poorly implemented.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 01:45:42 pm by ButchM »
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jjj

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Re: Adobe's Tom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2015, 01:38:54 pm »

Adobe should make two versions.
Literoom for the hard of thinking and Lightroom for those who can take a lens cap off without needing instructions.
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Adobe's Tom Hogarty Apology for LR CC 6.2 release
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2015, 02:16:22 pm »

An "expert" checkbox, revealing the old interface (or something like it) would do the trick.

Jeremy
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