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Author Topic: Obsolescence Be Damned! - LuLa Article  (Read 11622 times)

jjj

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Re: Obsolescence Be Damned! - LuLa Article
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2015, 09:35:59 am »

Indeed. I think the moral of the story is to select the improvements that are useful to you, rather than the ones the engineers or marketers tell you are cool :-)
Absolutely.
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rdonson

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Re: Obsolescence Be Damned! - LuLa Article
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2015, 09:48:31 am »

I thoroughly enjoyed the article and I've been amazed by Huntington Witherill's work for a long time.

Like others here I'm an amateur photographer and I retired after 40+ years in various hardware and software technology positions.  Computers are pretty much second nature to me.  I'm also a lifelong learner who delved into photography a little over 50 years ago.

The article brought out for me the dichotomy we face as digital photographers.  We want to focus on the creative aspects of photography from capture to output without being overwhelmed by the technology involved to do it. 

For me moving from my Canon DSLRs to my Fuji X-T1 seemed to remove a layer of abstraction in capture that was liberating and far easier on my back and neck.  :)  Now, I only use my Canon DSLRs when it's absolutely necessary for the task.  This is NOT a knock on DSLRs...it's just what I'm doing.

Computers and software are quite complex as anyone who ventures into Photoshop can attest.  The driving force these days seems to be mobile.  Mobile won't tolerate the arcane structures that traditional desktop software enforces.  The next advances in desktop computing will likely come from advances in user interfaces made by mobile apps and translated to the desktop.  We're seeing the beginnings of that now.  Unfortunately we're often curmudgeons when it comes to changing things we've begrudgingly learned and accepted.  The most recent example may be the hostility voiced about the changes to the Lightroom "Import" screen. 

Digital printing, especially for what we call "fine art" printing, is another case in point in complexity and arcane workflow.

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jjj

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Re: Obsolescence Be Damned! - LuLa Article
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2015, 09:54:08 am »

Unfortunately we're often curmudgeons when it comes to changing things we've begrudgingly learned and accepted.  The most recent example may be the hostility voiced about the changes to the Lightroom "Import" screen.
The hostility is because the changes 'broke' things without a better or indeed any replacement. A very different thing to what is being discussed here.
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alainbriot

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Re: Obsolescence Be Damned! - LuLa Article
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2015, 01:46:17 pm »

Progress in art have been tied to the introduction of new technology as much as to the introduction of new ideas, social situations, political changes and so on.  To freeze one's equipment (literally by putting a back up computer in cold storage in this instance) means freezing one's work with a specific technology, or at least with a specific development stage of that technology.

One of the challenges of doing so is to limit this freezing to one's gear and not let it expand onto one's artistic inspiration.  I'm not sure if I would be able to navigate this route successfully given how much interaction there is today between the technology we use and the way we live and think.  I personally find these changes to be both motivating and challenging.  I also find inspiration in the conversations I have with other photographers about these changes.

Of course this is an individual position, but for me there is an undeniable link between my work and the advancements in the technology that I use.  I always find something new and interesting in major software releases and I try to find a way to include the possibilities that these new tools offer in my work. For me to stop this process would mean a drastic reduction in my inspiration because improvements in the tools that I use allow me to better express my vision.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 01:51:11 pm by alainbriot »
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Rob C

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Re: Obsolescence Be Damned! - LuLa Article
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2015, 02:08:42 pm »

Progress in art have been tied to the introduction of new technology as much as to the introduction of new ideas, social situations, political changes and so on.  To freeze one's equipment (literally by putting a back up computer in cold storage in this instance) means freezing one's work with a specific technology, or at least with a specific development stage of that technology.

One of the challenges of doing so is to limit this freezing to one's gear and not let it expand onto one's artistic inspiration.  I'm not sure if I would be able to navigate this route successfully given how much interaction there is today between the technology we use and the way we live and think.  I personally find these changes to be both motivating and challenging.  I also find inspiration in the conversations I have with other photographers about these changes.

Of course this is an individual position, but for me there is an undeniable link between my work and the advancements in the technology that I use.  I always find something new and interesting in major software releases and I try to find a way to include the possibilities that these new tools offer in my work. For me to stop this process would mean a drastic reduction in my inspiration because improvements in the tools that I use allow me to better express my vision.


I'm sure it wouldn't upset you, but how distant that makes you to poor old St Ansel!

I find that new technology gets in the way more than not; yes, it allows more messing about and the artificial insemination of effects and tricks that, largely, do nohing but create caricatures of photography.

The simple, clean, honest and very able rendition of something that started off being wonderful can't be beaten; however, a whore can be turned into a more shiny one quite easily.

It's much about what you value, I suppose.

For my own sins, I find it more rewarding to play down on bangs and flashes, pyrotechnics of all kinds, and stick as close to normality as I can...

;-)

Rob C

Isaac

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Re: Obsolescence Be Damned! - LuLa Article
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2015, 02:26:36 pm »

…how distant that makes you to poor old St Ansel!

Distant from the Ansel Adams who tested new films and products for Polaroid Corporation for 35 years?
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Rob C

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Re: Obsolescence Be Damned! - LuLa Article
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2015, 02:36:03 pm »

Distant from the Ansel Adams who tested new films and products for Polaroid Corporation for 35 years?


What has that to do with the stuff he used? He also wrote a lot of letters, didn't make him a writer.

In the context of Alain's post, I believe we are talking about contemporary options which, by definition, pretty much means digital. Ansel seemed to stay happy with stand cameras until he had to try something lighter. Then, even with the 500 Series, he appears to have lost his mojo.

Rob C
« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 02:40:20 pm by Rob C »
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jjj

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Re: Obsolescence Be Damned! - LuLa Article
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2015, 02:39:16 pm »

I find that new technology gets in the way more than not; yes, it allows more messing about and the artificial insemination of effects and tricks that, largely, do nohing but create caricatures of photography.
I think that says more about you than it does change.

Quote
The simple, clean, honest and very able rendition of something that started off being wonderful can't be beaten; however, a whore can be turned into a more shiny one quite easily.
So dodging and burning a print should be eschewed then too? Or making up one's models before taking their photo? Not to mention all that fancy lighting that simply isn't needed.


Quote
It's much about what you value, I suppose.

For my own sins, I find it more rewarding to play down on bangs and flashes, pyrotechnics of all kinds, and stick as close to normality as I can...
I reckon that if you were good with software, you'd sing a completely different tune.  :P
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Rob C

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Re: Obsolescence Be Damned! - LuLa Article
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2015, 02:42:15 pm »

I think that says more about you than it does change.
So dodging and burning a print should be eschewed then too? Or making up one's models before taking their photo? Not to mention all that fancy lighting that simply isn't needed.

I reckon that if you were good with software, you'd sing a completely different tune.  :P


Too stretched for time to fight, but I grant you: a beautiful distortion of the meaning of my post!

;-)

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Re: Obsolescence Be Damned! - LuLa Article
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2015, 02:50:11 pm »

Distant from the Ansel Adams who tested new films and products for Polaroid Corporation for 35 years?

+1

I also enjoyed reading Adam's writings, be it in his how to books or in his letters.  I personally consider him to be a writer.  His publications are not limited to books of photographs, they also include books where he explains his artistic and technical approach to photography.  His words have influenced me as much as his photography.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 02:57:20 pm by alainbriot »
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jjj

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Re: Obsolescence Be Damned! - LuLa Article
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2015, 02:55:53 pm »

Too stretched for time to fight, but I grant you: a beautiful distortion of the meaning of my post!
No distortion, simply adding context.
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MarkL

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Re: Obsolescence Be Damned! - LuLa Article
« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2015, 09:03:43 pm »

This article does take a rather extreme position (buying a 6 year old computer to hold in storage?) but each to their own. I can see learning new tools being a frustration if someone jumps from one brand and system each time but the re-learning in the updates of most software and camera bodies is really not very significant (especially in the world of dslrs with their almost glacial advancement). With cameras themselves, after getting a body set-up initially the actual variables in taking a picture stay the same regardless of the brand or model.

Personally, I can’t have enough technical advancement to help me make even better quality pictures. I guess some people are just more comfortable with technology (and change) than others but this is a technology based pursuit after-all.
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graeme

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Re: Obsolescence Be Damned! - LuLa Article
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2015, 09:20:24 am »

My other half & I run a stained glass business -  not leaded lights or sun catchers, but full works church windows & public art commissions. The basic techniques we use are nearly a thousand years old. We have electric & gas kilns now and better glass cutters but basically if a stained glass worker was time machined from 1100 AD & dropped into our studio we could have him up to working speed in a couple of days.

This is in gobsmacking contrast to the constant evolution of digital imaging hardware & software. I remember learning a very convoluted capture sharpening routine which I recorded as an action. It improved my images but took quite a bit of understanding. A couple of years later it was made obsolete by four sliders in ACR which did the same job better. This isn't a complaint, it's just difficult not to contrast it with the techniques & tools that Deb & I learnt over twenty years ago which we'll use for the rest of our working lives.

Having said that, PS, Lightroom & Illustrator have become invaluable to our work. I've used Illustrator to lay out cutlines ( the templates we cut the glass from ) for 5 metre high sets of windows with geometric elements running between the lights. We get these printed up on a large format plotter & they're accurate to within about .75mm per metre which is fine for our requirements & probably more accurate than we could achieve manually. In the past this would have involved hiring a space with a large smooth floor area ( village hall or suchlike ).

PS / Lightroom are also brilliant for preparing / resizing artwork & also for photomontaging images of window sections together to check for mistakes & inconsistencies in colour etc. ( Large windows are made in sections & it's often difficult or impossible to see the whole window as one before installation ).

Digital cameras have been wonderful for photographing our work for portfolio use: I spent over a decade shooting rolls of bracketed slides & throwing two thirds of them away ( stained glass can be a bit of a bugger to expose correctly ). On occasions we'd shoot neg film & 50% of the time the prints would come back overexposed and / or wrongly cut because the labs equipment was fooled by the dark areas in the images. Photography was such a royal PITA that I never wanted to do any personal work with a camera.

So we've ended up using a combo of medieval & 21st century tech in our work to our advantage.

But I absolutely empathise with the writer's position. I feel like the amount of time I've spent learning to use software, relearning to use software when it's upgraded, sorting out incompatibilities, / crashes / backups / new hardware has been to my detriment as an artist: If you're mired in all this shit you're not drawing or taking photos.

Deb hasn't bothered with all of this digital stuff, has instead concentrated on developing the art & craft she trained in & has a creative career: I on the other hand haven't had any design work or done any exhibitions for over a decade ( not that I was ever destined to be any kind of artistic genius anyway - haven't quite got the talent ).

I've helped a few artist friends out with digital imaging stuff & they commented on how 'clever' I am. My response is usually, 'I'm not clever I'm a ***ing idiot'.

Yours ambivalently

Graeme

PS I frequent this forum quite a bit & lurk on the Online Photographer. After a while you notice how many of the regulars are from tech, esp software backgrounds rather than art / craft based ones.
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jjj

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Re: Obsolescence Be Damned! - LuLa Article
« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2015, 10:00:45 am »

My other half & I run a stained glass business -  not leaded lights or sun catchers, but full works church windows & public art commissions. The basic techniques we use are nearly a thousand years old. We have electric & gas kilns now and better glass cutters but basically if a stained glass worker was time machined from 1100 AD & dropped into our studio we could have him up to working speed in a couple of days.

This is in gobsmacking contrast to the constant evolution of digital imaging hardware & software. I remember learning a very convoluted capture sharpening routine which I recorded as an action. It improved my images but took quite a bit of understanding. A couple of years later it was made obsolete by four sliders in ACR which did the same job better. This isn't a complaint, it's just difficult not to contrast it with the techniques & tools that Deb & I learnt over twenty years ago which we'll use for the rest of our working lives.
I'm sure before stained glass making processes matured there was lots of experimentation and rejected processes too. Software processes like the ones you mention are very, very new and still being developed. So of course they are going to change a fair bit until they mature also.

Quote
Having said that, PS, Lightroom & Illustrator have become invaluable to our work. I've used Illustrator to lay out cutlines ( the templates we cut the glass from ) for 5 metre high sets of windows with geometric elements running between the lights. We get these printed up on a large format plotter & they're accurate to within about .75mm per metre which is fine for our requirements & probably more accurate than we could achieve manually. In the past this would have involved hiring a space with a large smooth floor area ( village hall or suchlike ).
Yet you now use some 21st century tech as it's better than the old method. Just like those 4 sliders in LR were better than the old method.  :P
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 10:03:39 am by jjj »
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graeme

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Re: Obsolescence Be Damned! - LuLa Article
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2015, 11:35:08 am »

I'm sure before stained glass making processes matured there was lots of experimentation and rejected processes too. Software processes like the ones you mention are very, very new and still being developed. So of course they are going to change a fair bit until they mature also.
Yet you now use some 21st century tech as it's better than the old method. Just like those 4 sliders in LR were better than the old method.  :P

Yes. Note the 'Yours ambivalently' at the end of my post.
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Isaac

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Re: Obsolescence Be Damned! - LuLa Article
« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2015, 11:40:25 am »

What has that to do with the stuff he used?

Is it possible that you just don't know what film and equipment Ansel Adams used?


In the context of Alain's post, I believe we are talking about contemporary options which, by definition, pretty much means digital.

Granted, Ansel Adams did not live long enough to have the opportunity to experience digital photography.
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amolitor

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Re: Obsolescence Be Damned! - LuLa Article
« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2015, 11:29:32 am »

Some Art is driven by new tech. Some isn't.

Plenty of people working with paint and brushes and doing fine work.

At some point every artist needs to stop monkeying around with the latest tech and get down to the business of making art. It's a full time gig right there.

Different story for commercial guys, of course. They can't afford to hold still. Which means they now have two full time jobs.
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Rob C

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Re: Obsolescence Be Damned! - LuLa Article
« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2015, 02:46:21 pm »

Some Art is driven by new tech. Some isn't.

Plenty of people working with paint and brushes and doing fine work.

At some point every artist needs to stop monkeying around with the latest tech and get down to the business of making art. It's a full time gig right there.

Different story for commercial guys, of course. They can't afford to hold still. Which means they now have two full time jobs.


Which is why I'm so grateful that I was running when I was!

My F, F2, F4s, 500C, 500C/M were viable for decades, as is my F3 today, as would be the rest of them did I still have 'em. My D200 and D700 in thirty years time... ? I sure won't be viable, before anyone hastens to point that out as a factor.

;-)

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jjj

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Re: Obsolescence Be Damned! - LuLa Article
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2015, 02:58:02 pm »

My F, F2, F4s, 500C, 500C/M were viable for decades, as is my F3 today, as would be the rest of them did I still have 'em. My D200 and D700 in thirty years time... ? I sure won't be viable, before anyone hastens to point that out as a factor.
You never know, there may be a decent upgrade for yourself in a few years time. ;)
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alainbriot

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Re: Obsolescence Be Damned! - LuLa Article
« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2015, 06:53:22 pm »

Some Art is driven by new tech. Some isn't.

Plenty of people working with paint and brushes and doing fine work.

At some point every artist needs to stop monkeying around with the latest tech and get down to the business of making art. It's a full time gig right there.

Different story for commercial guys, of course. They can't afford to hold still. Which means they now have two full time jobs.

+1
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