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Author Topic: Do large format film has more "tone resolution" than smaller format films?  (Read 5281 times)

amolitor

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Re: Do large format film has more "tone resolution" than smaller format films?
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2015, 09:33:52 am »

Film format does not have anything to do with dynamic range. You can cut the same emulsion up large, small, or in to paper dolls, the properties remain the same.

Does a digital camera lose dynamic range when you set it to crop mode, only using the middle of the sensor?


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Ray

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Re: Do large format film has more "tone resolution" than smaller format films?
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2015, 10:28:27 am »

Does a digital camera lose dynamic range when you set it to crop mode, only using the middle of the sensor?

The pixel doesn't lose dynamic range but the over all image does, comparing shots of the same scene which have equal FoV, and using the same ISO and same ETTR process.

When the full sensor is used, each part of the scene examined will consist of more pixels than the same parts of the same scene shot in crop mode. More pixels means more light has been gathered to portray each part of the scene, whether shadows or mid-tones, and the over all signal-to-noise ratio is therefore better. This is one of the main reasons why some people prefer the larger format.
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BJL

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Film format does not have anything to do with dynamic range. You can cut the same emulsion up large, small, or in to paper dolls, the properties remain the same.

Does a digital camera lose dynamic range when you set it to crop mode, only using the middle of the sensor?
The tonal resolution of a print does depend on the format indirectly, through the different degrees of enlargement needed to get a given sized print: please consider what has been said about dithering, and the way that information gets "averaged" to form the signal that the eye eventually receives.  Averaging multiple signals increases the SNR of the resulting signal.

And to your second question: Yes, in the important practical sense of signal to noise ratios of the final displayed image (print or on-screen), working with the whole file rather than a crop does allow you to produce a final image with "higher DR" or "finer tonal gradations" because for example the data from more pixels can be averaged to produce output pixels of higher SNR (higher DR).

This should be easy to see: take a high pixel count file (preferably taken at high ISO, so that the raw per-photosite DR is lowish) and first display the whole thing at suitably high PPI, and then view a small crop at the same size, so at far lower PPI.  (Two prints of the same size, or just zooming in on screen will do it.)  You should be able to see differences in "tonal gradations", or "DR" or whatever one calls it, in part through the more visible noise in the second image.

I plea once again for people to stop taking the engineering measures of per photosite DR and SNR alone as being direct measures of visual quality without taking account of how pixel count, PPI used when printing/displaying, degree of enlargement, and so on effect on the final visual result.
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Ray

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Re: Do large format film has more "tone resolution" than smaller format films?
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2015, 10:59:54 am »

This situation is demonstrated by the DXOMark graphs, comparing full-format cameras which have the same pixel density and pixel quality as a preceding cropped format camera.
For example, the 36mp D800 is basically a full-format version of the 16mp D7000, and the Canon 5DS is a full-format version of the 18mp 7D mark II.

The DXO graphs show equal pixel performance for both brands when comparing full-frame cameras with the cropped format of the same brand. However, at same print size both the Canon and Nikon full-frame cameras show higher DR, higher SNR and better Tonal Range than the cropped-format equivalents. Check out the following DXOMark comparison at:

http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon-EOS-7D-Mark-II-versus-Canon-EOS-5DS___977_1008
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amolitor

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Re: Do large format film has more "tone resolution" than smaller format films?
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2015, 11:30:08 am »

Fair enough. In pictures we tend to think of dynamic range as the distance from black to white, but yes, the noise floor does drop, which is an extension of DR.

I think dynamic range is the wrong thing to be looking at and thinking about.

The noise floor is the point here, and with large format film it's most obvious not at the ends of the range but in the middle. It is the relatively reduced noise that yields the sleek midtones, and if there's anything at all to a 'large format look' it is surely that.
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BJL

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"dynamic range is the wrong thing to be looking at and thinking about"
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2015, 05:51:41 pm »

I think dynamic range is the wrong thing to be looking at and thinking about.
I heartily agree!  For most photographers, it would be good to return discussions to concepts like subject brightness range, tonal gradations, ISO film-speed like measures of how dark a region of the scene can be before the SNR is above a threshold of usability (not 1:1!) etc., rather than adopting new and often mis-understood measured from an electronics text-book.  Used properly, various measure of SNR and DR can help, but only if we connect them properly to photographic objectives and effects on the final viewed image.

The noise floor is the point here, and with large format film it's most obvious not at the ends of the range but in the middle. It is the relatively reduced noise that yields the sleek midtones, and if there's anything at all to a 'large format look' it is surely that.
That makes sense.
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Diego Pigozzo

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Re: "dynamic range is the wrong thing to be looking at and thinking about"
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2015, 05:54:16 pm »

For most photographers, it would be good to return discussions to concepts like subject brightness range, tonal gradations...
That's the subject of the thread: do large format films resolve more tonal gradations?
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amolitor

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Re: "dynamic range is the wrong thing to be looking at and thinking about"
« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2015, 09:11:57 pm »

That's the subject of the thread: do large format films resolve more tonal gradations?

Subject to some fairly careful caveats about what, exactly, we mean, the answer is "generally yes".
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GrahamBy

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Re: Do large format film has more "tone resolution" than smaller format films?
« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2015, 05:59:03 am »

"More" gradations?

Surely we are talking about Nyquist sampling: higher spatial sampling frequency relative to image size means the ability to record higher spatial frequency information.

However I have a feeling we are talking about "smoothness" of gradation, which is about re-construction... that means dithering essentially, and an appropriate bit of microscopic blurring added by the printing process... which may be the real reason some enlarging lenses have a magic reputation, they are sharp without being too sharp.
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Diego Pigozzo

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Re: Do large format film has more "tone resolution" than smaller format films?
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2015, 06:08:12 am »

"More" gradations?

Surely we are talking about Nyquist sampling: higher spatial sampling frequency relative to image size means the ability to record higher spatial frequency information.
Yes, I think it is this (and maybe I just didn't get that "higher spatial frequency information" also implies "higher tone resolution").



However I have a feeling we are talking about "smoothness" of gradation, which is about re-construction... that means dithering essentially, and an appropriate bit of microscopic blurring added by the printing process... which may be the real reason some enlarging lenses have a magic reputation, they are sharp without being too sharp.
Yes, I think you're right.


I'm not an expert in signal processing, but I start to think that a given recostruction result may be achieved by both low-frequency/high-bit-sample  and high-frequency/low-big-sample procedures.

Something like a 1-bit DAC.


ADDED:
This looks spot-on

Quote
In practice, oversampling is implemented in order to achieve cheaper higher-resolution A/D and D/A conversion.[1] For instance, to implement a 24-bit converter, it is sufficient to use a 20-bit converter that can run at 256 times the target sampling rate. Combining 256 consecutive 20-bit samples can increase the signal-to-noise ratio at the voltage level by a factor of 16 (the square root of the number of samples averaged), adding 4 bits to the resolution and producing a single sample with 24-bit resolution.[3]
When oversampling by a factor of N, the dynamic range increases by log2(N) bits, because there are N times as many possible values for the sum.


« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 06:18:38 am by Diego Pigozzo »
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