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KevinA

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Sound advice
« on: October 06, 2015, 04:34:17 am »

Hi all,
Any video I've done before sound has not been a consideration, I now have a project where I would like to film my day job (Aerial photography) the people that make it happen pilots ground crew etc plus some aerial footage. The cameras I will be using are Canon 1D X and 550, the image side I'm not worried about.
It's the sound that concerns me, if I use the 1D X as the main camera what would be the basic setup to record decent sound. Or is it best to keep sound and video separate then sync in editing?
It's going to end up on youtube/vimeo and around 5 minutes in length, but has to be right.

Cheers

Kevin.
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Christopher Sanderson

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Re: Sound advice
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2015, 02:57:29 pm »

Your recording device is likely the least important part of the equation. Synching in post is now absurdly easy.

Best Solution: Hire a soundman who will come with the right equipment & experience.

Good solution: Rent or buy good mics, cables and recorder. Depending on the situation, you may need wireless, wired lavaliers or boom with shotgun mic. The key things to remember are that voice quality dissipates geometrically with the distance from mic to mouth; be aware of the pickup pattern of your mics; being both the cameraman and the soundman is hard.

Sub-optimal: put a quality video mic on the camera closest to your subject.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 02:59:17 pm by Chris Sanderson »
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D Fuller

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Re: Sound advice
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2015, 09:35:07 pm »


Best Solution: Hire a soundman who will come with the right equipment & experience.


I agree.

The fact that you are asking this question suggests two things: (1.) that you care about sound, and (2.) that you don't know enough to do it under the conditions you describe (an air field, in and around airplanes, where competing loise levels can be more than just challenging.)

Given those two facts, I'd advocate hiring a good sound recordist. You'll get the sound you want, and you'll learn some things from him/her.
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KevinA

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Re: Sound advice
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2015, 02:48:31 pm »

I agree.

The fact that you are asking this question suggests two things: (1.) that you care about sound, and (2.) that you don't know enough to do it under the conditions you describe (an air field, in and around airplanes, where competing loise levels can be more than just challenging.)

Given those two facts, I'd advocate hiring a good sound recordist. You'll get the sound you want, and you'll learn some things from him/her.

Thanks guys.
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Morgan_Moore

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Re: Sound advice
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2015, 04:35:47 am »

I think one thing you need to consider is sound design and also your capabilities.

With the right 'attack' (concept for sound design) you can do a good job with a rode mic into a DSLR - or with a different tack  you might stress an expert with all the kit.

A simple attack is to interview people in a quiet place and then overlay footage of them in action in the edit.

The action footage needs some sound - one of my mentors told me 'a picture with no sound is a dead picture'

It is also worth considering that 'visually justified sound issues' are less bad than ones that are not justified.

An office sit down interview with a random dog bark from the neighbour messes with the viewer - an interview with a chef with a load of kitchen ambience in the sound and a busy kitchen environment behind them in picture does not mess with the viewer.

I find many people from directors up and down have issues with sound simply because their shooting concept is flawed from the start and does not match the kit/skills they have.

S
 


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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

Morgan_Moore

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Re: Sound advice
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2015, 04:48:29 am »

You might want to watch/listen this little project I shot..



This was quite a brave edit for me in that I didn't sit the whole project on an ambience of music.

All shot with a (shotgun) mic on top of the camera.

You will see/hear that there is interplay between the spoken and ambience.. the drill shots and the like in the edit in a manner not to cross the spoken audio.

A proud moment is the closing 'switch' where we see the switch, cut to the off lamp, and then see the lamp come on to the audio of the switch clicking all synched to the music hard cut.. nice :)

Listening again I have failed with some 'dead pictures' mainly wides of the workshop (filmed on a gopro) that needed wild track adding. There are also some pops due to hard audio cuts.

Had I done the interviews when there was drilling/hammering going on I would have been in a right mess.

I added one bit of Foley - the 'board wobble' - the machine in the opening shot is also a seperate sound recording.. because the picture is a timelapse!

You may also note that often sound hits in the edit before picture another 'mentor' told me 'you hear something and then you look at it!

A good ratio between spoken and ambient is the 'cakesmiths wanted..' with the nice little drop noises of the cutouts hitting the table.

It is not perfect but conceptually Im slowly getting there. Another thing.. you may think Im geekily breaking this down.. if you dont hit that geek level in the edit then you are not trying hard enough - you need to be able to sing your sound design and then put it in the edit.

Sing it "(interview) Im Bob.. I fly helicopers.. (ambient) whop whop whop... (tower) Roger Delta Tango Coming at Nine One squelch  (interview) I learned to fly in the RAF"

Once you can sing it you can shoot and record it.
Shot one - Bob in a quiet-ish mess room, interview (mic near him)
Shot two - Helicopter, you are on the runway and have the mic on the camera.. it will hear the chopper!
Audio from shot 2 is faded up to hit full level just before picture 2 hits screen but just after the word 'helicopters'
The audio from shot 2 is then continued under shot 3, being your second angle of a chopper that audio fades down and cut to some audio your recorded in the control tower, the hard squelch is a good place to get out of whop whop whop.

In Physical Chess (all mic on top of camera) you will hear in the opening one audio recording of 'skipping' with 4 cuts in vision of 'skipping' - one of the reasons it is critical to roll a lot of stuff - you need those long audio takes..

Also learn the value of zips and velcro audio.. the tool up sequence - The zip/velco is during a break in the interview not across it. - again ciritcally listening back on this after a couple of years there is too much dead picture - I needed sound of the sabres clashing and some trainer squeaks and a click on her doing up the D ring. All of these things are easy to record - 'hey I need my mic right by a few sword hits pleas'.. Im sitting on the musical crutch too heavily in Physical Chess.



S
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 05:49:54 am by Morgan_Moore »
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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

bcooter

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Re: Sound advice
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2015, 11:28:36 am »

but has to be right.




With all due respect, shooting to dialog, even vo, rather than on camera, can effect the visuals, if your not 100% prepared.

Saying that, don't be afraid of sound, embrace it as a part of production equal to lighting and framing.

It all is in the direction and final anticipation.  Most photographers look at sound as a necessary evil, most directors believe dialog is the reason for being there.

What seems like the easy answer is to hire a sound tech and I agree to some point, depending on the specialists.

Even with the best sound techs in the world the visual crew is there to work in concert with the sound crew.   It has to be a two way street.

To me nothing looks more lazy than to see action in a scene and then when it comes time for the dialog, all the actors stop, stand still, say their lines then go back to action.

We work with sound techs, assistant sound techs and have actually done it ourself.

Out of dozens of sound techs there is probably only one I've worked with that wasn't obtrusive and was very, very good.   Good is great, less than good sucks, no way around it.

If we do it ourself, we have 4 Senhauser radio Lavs, two audio-technica dual channel lavs and always use the Seinhuser's as the quality is equal, but the technicas are more difficult and larger to set up.

One thing I have to stress, even if your using a sound tech is be totally prepared. 

1.  Have sound blankets (furniture pads will work). 
If you have noise coming from one direction hanging a pad on rollers like flying a vertical silk will kill a lot of bad ambient sound,
especially in a room with bad acoustics, that bounce.

2.  If you use radio lavs, buy the rubber straps that go around the subjects chest and the little pads that go between the skin to mic to under the clothes.
This will stop that skin chaffing sound and cut down on the mic rubbing on a blouse/shirt.

3.  If not Lavs Sony makes some very good inexpensive hard wired mics that can be directional or broad and work very well with good sound suppression.
Just keep the mic isolated with rubber from any mounting arm or clamp and always use solid tubes, like a C stand arm, or a boom, because solid produces less resonance.

4. Also if the subject is walking we have rubber sticky pads for the shoes that work wonders for walking on hard floors and should be part of your kit.

4.  A good recorder works well and they don't cost much, though you obviously have no visual reference.
To me visual reference is important because a session with real people can be difficult for the subject if you cut every time there is an issue, because it implies to the subject they did something wrong.

I usually keep running and always give the subject(s) positive direction saying " that was great let's try . . ." .    When you clapboard every take, you can see the subject tighten up as you go rolling, speeding, mark, action.

5.  Have an assistant collect ALL mobile phones and turn them OFF.   Everybody says, they turn their phone off, but they never do and nothing screws a shoot like a phone ringing.
In America everyone chews gum.  All gum goes in the rubbish bin.

6.  Keep a fresh water bottle for all the speaking subjects.   Nothing is more non fixable that a scratchy voice and have the subject take a sip between sets.  It also calms the subject.

7. The line Quiet On Set is the most important word for the day.   Keep all background speaking to fake talking (no noise) and put that in later in post as foley sound.

8. Foley sound is very important.   Never think a car door slamming, or background dialog or anything happening while your working will sound professional during the take.

9.  Just like shooting footage, you can never have too much foley sound options.

10.  Be prepared for looping the voices, if the location sound doesn't work.  This can seem like overkill, but finding a small room, with some blankets and a set of headphones and with a small lcd and headphones for the subject they can get very close to looping the dialog, even subjects that have never been on camera.

This means you have to have the imagery available and obviously a sound only recorder won't do this, but there are options.  Few people want to loop, consequently few people get great sound on challenging locations.

11.  Buy two sets of headphones.  Very expensive which have rich deep sound, but also suppress a lot of issues like a small hum, or echo.  I use a cheap set of white panasonic htx7 I 90% of the time, because they're not rich and deep, but they pick up everything and I mean everything.

They saved me by letting me hear a hum (which was a hmi ballast on mains packing up) where the sound tech never heard it.

12.  If you hire and on set tech, make sure you give him/her an idea of how you work, the time involved per setup, if you shoot multi-cam, or wide, etc. etc. etc.   ALL sound techs will tell you something can't be done.  It's their nature and they want to capture pure sound (which is why they are hired).
But for every time I've had a tech say it can't be done, in the end they always get it.   Sometimes it's just difficult and usually takes some level of compromise from the director/dp to the sound tech.

11.  At the end of the edit, hire a sound sweetener/tech.    The difference of great post mixer is just amazing and not that expensive and will up the level of your production 100%.   

12.   Now this is a wildcard and nobody on this forum will probably agree, but one way to speed production is to buy an old (but in good shape) Canon xl1 SD camera and the Canon xlr adapter.
This camera had one of the best on camera mics and sound preamps.   In fact one of Hollywood's largest film studios still uses the xl1 for some foley sound.

The beauty of placing a camera like an xl1 is you have a visual reference of the take, even if you use pluraleyes to sync up, having a visual saves a lot of time in post workflow and makes sorting, scrub and cut.

The xl1 shoots tape and most people go ugh . . .  tape, but tape is reliable if you know how to set it up and collecting it is a breeze in old fcp7, or other non linear editors, even an older i movie.

Or find a good smaller eng style camera with great preamps and adjustments that shoots to cards.

13.  Sorry for the long post, but most of this I have learned the hard way.

IMO

BC
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Lightbox

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Re: Sound advice
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2015, 02:57:22 am »

^ Gold, thanks Sam & BC.
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Morgan_Moore

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Re: Sound advice
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2015, 04:53:57 am »

As ever nothing coots says is wrong. But he is talking big production.

I do however think that starting with simple use of a single shotgun (shotguns are more directional than lavs by a million miles) placed close to the sound you want and building from there is a good introduction to building your sound.

Shotguns also don't have clothes rustle, a real wire cuts interference, and you don't have to fiddle with female talent in private areas, and can swap through a bunch of speaking heads in seconds without the wire em up faf.

The only time Ive used a lav is when I was filming a tour guide - the mic is on him saying 'this is the tower of london' while Im hoovering up shots of said tower - on camera mic is completely off axis. The camera is kept rolling to get his commentary, even when the picture is total garbage as I moving to the next shot location.

BTW when I say mic on camera I still mean with the mic within 18 inches of the subject - either a tight head, camera looking and the chopping board and knife, or further off I will boom. Either by getting help, or using a stand.

It is important to know that with the shot 'chef chops carrots'  that you can use sound you got from a 'tight' to paste (in the edit) over a wide of the chef doing the chopping. Record chop chop chop in the close sound and picture, shoot wide of chopping
Edit
Shot 1
wide picture close sound
Shot 2
close picture clost sound

Over roll to get those long sound takes.

I restrict my shoots when working solo - tight talking heads, close up of other audio sources.

It is also important to know the value of shots free of 'waggling lips' - the noddy, the listening shot, the uber wide focussed on the rubber plant talent OOF in BG, and chop in cutaways like hands - these shots are used to cover edits in the dialogue track (as may be a second interview angle)

So much picture shooting is to cover the sound edit, many pictures are shot specifically to deal with an edit that will work with sound.

Also the talent can help - 'Here we are at Google HQ, surrounded by the hum of a thousend servers' - sound justified, audience happy, silent background not needed.

A final tip avoid 'The Goldfish' - that is a person on screen whose lips are moving but sound is not in edit.

---

If a director wants a 50m steadicam walkie through traffic in a wide with three talent I would say.. 'you need a soundie'

S








« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 05:15:15 am by Morgan_Moore »
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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

Hywel

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Re: Sound advice
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2015, 09:33:04 am »

As always, very sound  ;) advice from both Sam and Cooter.

Like Sam though I find lavs are an awful fiddle, I've probably only used mine half a dozen times. It's hard to hide a lav mic on a low cut satin ballgown or when the actress isn't wearing anything at all!

I've found that a hypercardiod mic is a useful addition. It's got a broader pick-up pattern, about 180 degrees. Which makes it less critical to point it exactly at the source, but also still allows for good rejection of eg traffic noise if orientated sensibly.

It's EXTREMELY useful on a boom pole on a (well-weighted!) C-stand in small interiors. I shoot 90% of my stuff this way.

t's less faff than a lav, more forgiving than a shotgun and can be used to cover two or three person dialogue so long as the speakers are reasonably close to each other.

A fixed boom mic is no substitute for a sound guy with a shotgun and arms of steel, but depending on your production budget it can be a lifesaver.

I have mine with a Sennheiser radio transmitter "butt plug" on it and pipe the sound direct into the RED or GH4. This is a bit risky without someone monitoring because you can get pickup, especially if some drongo has left their mobile phone on near it. But overall I've found it every bit as reliable as a cable.

I used to get as many shots ruined by someone (i.e. me) walking on the cable as I now get from pickup.

It's generally a lot less hassle than cabled sound for gimbal or dolly shots. The preamp on the Sennheiser trasmitter is reasonable. It wouldn't satisfy a professional sound tech I'm sure, but we're talking about trying to get 80% of the result with 20% of the money here, and it generally works just fine.

If I think there may be some risk of pickup I record ambient sound with an H4N with its built in mic as well, maybe parked on the boom pole with the main mic. At least then there is SOME fall-back sound if the radio mic gets interference. But in all honesty I very rarely do this.

Putting a hypercardiod mic on a boom pole and getting it as close as possible to the talent shot by shot certainly passes the 80% result/20% effort test for me.

If your stuff is more critical and your budget will stand it, get a sound guy. 

Cheers, Hywel


« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 09:36:45 am by Hywel »
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bcooter

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Re: Sound advice
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2015, 12:11:44 pm »



Like Sam though I find lavs are an awful fiddle, I've probably only used mine half a dozen times. It's hard to hide a lav mic on a low cut satin ballgown or when the actress isn't wearing anything at all!

I've found that a hypercardiod mic is a useful addition. It's got a broader pick-up pattern, about 180 degrees. Which makes it less critical to point it exactly at the source, but also still allows for good rejection of eg traffic noise if orientated sensibly.

It's EXTREMELY useful on a boom pole on a (well-weighted!) C-stand in small interiors. I shoot 90% of my stuff this way.

t's less faff than a lav, more forgiving than a shotgun and can be used to cover two or three person dialogue so long as the speakers are reasonably close to each other.

A fixed boom mic is no substitute for a sound guy with a shotgun and arms of steel, but depending on your production budget it can be a lifesaver.

I have mine with a Sennheiser radio transmitter "butt plug" on it and pipe the sound direct into the RED or GH4. This is a bit risky without someone monitoring because you can get pickup, especially if some drongo has left their mobile phone on near it. But overall I've found it every bit as reliable as a cable.

I used to get as many shots ruined by someone (i.e. me) walking on the cable as I now get from pickup.

It's generally a lot less hassle than cabled sound for gimbal or dolly shots. The preamp on the Sennheiser trasmitter is reasonable. It wouldn't satisfy a professional sound tech I'm sure, but we're talking about trying to get 80% of the result with 20% of the money here, and it generally works just fine.

If I think there may be some risk of pickup I record ambient sound with an H4N with its built in mic as well, maybe parked on the boom pole with the main mic. At least then there is SOME fall-back sound if the radio mic gets interference. But in all honesty I very rarely do this.

Putting a hypercardiod mic on a boom pole and getting it as close as possible to the talent shot by shot certainly passes the 80% result/20% effort test for me.

If your stuff is more critical and your budget will stand it, get a sound guy. 

Cheers, Hywel


Not everything we do is huge production, but lavs have saved me many times.   Finding those pads between skin and clothes made a world of difference and I don't like being limited to 3/4 cropping for sound, as I like subjects walking, moving as they talk.

Also mixing with a really good sound sweetener tech is a world of differrence.  They can really clean up some problems, other than hum, or a click, but if the sound is there my tech can get it.

I really don't know why there isn't a link to lens to onboard mic like the old xl1.   You could be almost full length and it would zoom in, and for interiors it was good as long as there wasn't room bounce.

This was the first "video" I shot long ago SD with an XL1, with zero sound sweetening in post, which would have added richness.  Sorry for the small reproduction, but this is the only copy I could find.

STRANGE

As an interesting side note this was shot at the culver studios, which use to be part of Sony/Columbia studios. 

This bungalow was where Orson Wells wrote the majority of Citizen Kane, directly across from Gloria Swanson's bungalow that Joseph Kennedy bought her with her own money. (Those Kennedy boys).

Anyway, the room had horrible accoustics but that old xl1 with a stock mic worked well.

IMO

BC


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