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Author Topic: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?  (Read 46253 times)

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #120 on: October 13, 2015, 09:33:08 am »

I can well understand why Adobe want to make the default import process very, very simple, and hide most of the options well out of view.  Many of those options are likely to confuse new users and lead them into bad choices, and might be better hidden in an "Advanced Mode" or some such, possibly with "there be dragons, don't go that place" warnings for new users.

Indeed, how hard could it be to add an 'advanced' user checkbox, which is off by default on first use???

Cheers,
Bart
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sniper

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #121 on: October 13, 2015, 09:52:16 am »

They don't assume that. They've done "extensive studies" "over the years" that demonstrated Import was putting off people who might have been Lightroom users. See here

Lightroom has always hidden complexity that users don't need to understand - eg colour management.
I suspect removing items from a mature product may put off more users than they gain. Especially as we don't know how far it's going to go in the future.
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davidedric

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #122 on: October 13, 2015, 10:27:16 am »

Quote
  In practice, importing usually involves two quite distinct functions: copying images from memory card to the hard drive (possibly renaming them on the way) and importing into the catalogue.  To me it's no wonder that people not familiar with all this can get confused. 

Too true.  If they hadn't bundled the two together and called it "Import", there would be a lot less confusion for newcomers.  Maybe "Copy" and "Register", or whatever makes most sense to most people.

Dave
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ButchM

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #123 on: October 13, 2015, 10:50:19 am »

They don't assume that. They've done "extensive studies" "over the years" that demonstrated Import was putting off people who might have been Lightroom users. See here

Lightroom has always hidden complexity that users don't need to understand - eg colour management.

1. I am well aware that Mr. Mangalick stated they performed 'extensive studies' ... but how many home visits were actually made? What number equates with 'extensive'? Whatever the number was, clearly it was not enough to supplant the previous version of the Import dialog in order to achieve that end. The results of what has transpired seem to indicate they were basing their decisions on either incomplete and/or inaccurate data points. How is it that potential market can take their photography seriously enough to learn the complexities to shoot and process RAW images, yet they hit the wall at the Import dialog in Lightroom? Sorry, I fail to see the wisdom that attracting those users to the fold is going to enhance Adobe's bottom line in a significant fashion over the long term ... especially when doing so ended up eroding their established customer satisfaction exponentially.

2. The traditional, established user base is not a collection of Rhodes Scholars with vastly superior mental capacity. (I include myself in that group as I know I am not eligible for Mensa membership and not afraid to admit it.) The current, average Lr user is not an advanced scholar that grasped the nuances and complexities of Lr upon first glance ... We all had to learn about that process. The difference was we had a desire to do so. I'm not sure you can code to achieve human desire to learn.

I have no issue with Adobe desiring to reach such goals, I do take exception to the manner and timing they employed to achieve that goal. It's been quite apparent I am not alone in that sentiment.
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jeremyrh

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #124 on: October 16, 2015, 05:39:40 am »

For a lot of volume shooters this was one of the main purposes of the import module.  Why would you want to take the time to import, build 1:1 previews, review and delete (a process that can take a long time) when you can simply pick the likely keepers and import. 
Probably I entirely missed the point, but can you not still do this, uncheck all the images and check on the ones you want?
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john beardsworth

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #125 on: October 16, 2015, 05:50:31 am »

Probably I entirely missed the point, but can you not still do this, uncheck all the images and check on the ones you want?

Jeremy, there was a 1:1 zoom, so some people sought to use Import to evaluate images. Library is designed for that task (eg side by side, quick develop etc).
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Jimbo57

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #126 on: October 16, 2015, 05:51:20 am »

The current, average Lr user is not an advanced scholar that grasped the nuances and complexities of Lr upon first glance ... We all had to learn about that process. The difference was we had a desire to do so.

Those of us who grew up with Lightroom may have a tendency to fail to appreciate how "difficult" it appears to someone coming to it fresh today.

When giving tuition to new Lightroom users, the Import procedure is what causes the most difficulty. I would say that, on average, nine out of ten new users have decided to only use the bare bones of the system. Whereas you and I plug in our memory card and let Lightroom copy the files to a hard disc, import them into the LR catalogue, apply our choice of default presets, etc., etc., etc. (wonderful system for you and me), new users tend to have given up on that. They will copy their Raw files to their PC using Explorer, do all of the sorting and pruning in Windows and then import only the files that they intend to work on immediately in LR.

Maybe Adobe's customer research showed a similar state.
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jeremyrh

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #127 on: October 16, 2015, 06:07:07 am »

Jeremy, there was a 1:1 zoom, so some people sought to use Import to evaluate images. Library is designed for that task (eg side by side, quick develop etc).
Aah - I see, thanks. Also it occurs that maybe the "tick" obscures the image.
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Jeff Griffin

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #128 on: October 16, 2015, 06:46:08 am »

" but how many home visits were actually made "

I am in the UK and Adobe certainly did not come knocking on my front door for an home visit.

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ButchM

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #129 on: October 16, 2015, 11:51:23 am »

Jeremy, there was a 1:1 zoom, so some people sought to use Import to evaluate images. Library is designed for that task (eg side by side, quick develop etc).

Library is designed for that task indeed ... but if we users were never to utilize the 1:1 zoom in the import process, why ddi Adobe ever include it in the first place? Why was it only now that Adobe discovered the error of their ways and removed the capability? Surely the capability offered value to some from the inception of including the feature. I also fail to see how the optional ability to view an image at 1:1 in the import dialog actually hindered or intimidated a new user.
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john beardsworth

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #130 on: October 16, 2015, 02:32:30 pm »

Library is designed for that task indeed ... but if we users were never to utilize the 1:1 zoom in the import process, why ddi Adobe ever include it in the first place? Why was it only now that Adobe discovered the error of their ways and removed the capability? Surely the capability offered value to some from the inception of including the feature. I also fail to see how the optional ability to view an image at 1:1 in the import dialog actually hindered or intimidated a new user.

They gave way to demand to use the import stage to review/cull and perform other tasks like applying keywords, metadata presets, develop presets. After all, there is a superficial attraction to taking advantage of a bottleneck that every photo has to pass through. As you know, they then did extensive studies and built the thing up again. They thought some things made sense to implement again, others not.
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ButchM

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #131 on: October 16, 2015, 03:01:55 pm »

As you know, they then did extensive studies and built the thing up again.

No, I don't know that they conducted extensive studies. Yes, Mangalick did mention they visited a few users homes and Hogarty did mention they used some monitoring metrics ... that it seems quite a few users opt out of for privacy concerns ... though neither ever further shared the quantity or quality of the empirical data to back up their assertions. I'm sorry, but if you are going to cite such data as the prima facia factor to support your decisions and then fail to back it up with at least some cursory numbers or even percentages to support the outcome ... I can't blindly accept the premise purely on face value.

The feedback that Adobe has received since v6.2/2015.2 would seem to prove that the data points they based their decisions upon were either incomplete or inaccurate or a little of both. I think by Hogrty's apology and update to the apology, he even agrees they were wrong in thinking that their study was indicative of the actual usage metrics of Lightroom.
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john beardsworth

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #132 on: October 16, 2015, 03:39:59 pm »

Whatever....
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John Hollenberg

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #133 on: October 16, 2015, 09:43:59 pm »

Latest info from Tom Hogarty:

"We can now confirm that, in our next dot release, we will restore the previous import experience. We are still working on details and timing. In the meantime, if you need to restore previous import functionality prior to the next update, please refer to this document on how to roll back to Lightroom 6.1.1 (https://helpx.adobe.com/lightroom/kb/roll-back-to-prior-update.html)."

http://blogs.adobe.com/lightroomjournal/2015/10/lightroom-62-import-update.html
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Rory

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #134 on: October 16, 2015, 10:13:37 pm »

They gave way to demand to use the import stage to review/cull and perform other tasks like applying keywords, metadata presets, develop presets. After all, there is a superficial attraction to taking advantage of a bottleneck that every photo has to pass through.

Thanks a lot John.  Why don't you take a hit for the team and lay off on your denigrating this feature, which is essential to any volume shooter, as evidenced by the success of photomechanic.
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ButchM

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #135 on: October 16, 2015, 11:43:35 pm »

Thanks a lot John.  Why don't you take a hit for the team and lay off on your denigrating this feature, which is essential to any volume shooter, as evidenced by the success of photomechanic.

If Adobe would have taken the time to listen to at least a few of us who requested as far back as Lr v2 public beta ... to include the option to only import tagged (i.e. locked in-camera) images, rather than EVERY image on the card ... those of us that shoot action sports and news coverage on tight deadlines wouldn't have to cull as part of the import process just to get to the relatively few images we need to deliver under tight time restraints.

I think it would be in Adobe's best interests to offer such an option so as to avoid valued users to seek out other options to meet their needs ... wouldn't Adobe rather have that $150 that some users spent on Photo Mechanic in order to fill that gap?

If I had all day to wait for Lightroom to churn out the unnecessary previews and other ancillary tasks for batches of images I don't need to deliver right this minute ... sure, I'd be all for Adobe paring down the functions of the Import dialog. But alas ... I live in the real world and have actual short term deadlines to meet.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 11:59:17 pm by ButchM »
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john beardsworth

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #136 on: October 17, 2015, 04:00:50 am »

Thanks a lot John.  Why don't you take a hit for the team and lay off on your denigrating this feature, which is essential to any volume shooter, as evidenced by the success of photomechanic.

Rory, why don't you cease questioning my honesty and focus on criticising my arguments? It is not "essential to any volume shooter", just to those volume shooters with certain time pressures, as evidenced by the success of PhotoMechanic (which I sometimes use) and by its niche market presence.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2015, 04:29:36 am by john beardsworth »
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john beardsworth

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #137 on: October 17, 2015, 04:23:34 am »

If Adobe would have taken the time to listen to at least a few of us who requested as far back as Lr v2 public beta ... to include the option to only import tagged (i.e. locked in-camera) images, rather than EVERY image on the card ... those of us that shoot action sports and news coverage on tight deadlines wouldn't have to cull as part of the import process just to get to the relatively few images we need to deliver under tight time restraints.

I think it would be in Adobe's best interests to offer such an option so as to avoid valued users to seek out other options to meet their needs ... wouldn't Adobe rather have that $150 that some users spent on Photo Mechanic in order to fill that gap?

If I had all day to wait for Lightroom to churn out the unnecessary previews and other ancillary tasks for batches of images I don't need to deliver right this minute ... sure, I'd be all for Adobe paring down the functions of the Import dialog. But alas ... I live in the real world and have actual short term deadlines to meet.

Small gap. PM is a very good program with a strong focus on its small segment of the market. If Adobe did choose to go for that group, just how many features would they need to copy (stationery?) and how many loyal PM users would they gain? Would these be incremental users to Lr? Worthwhie?

There are a couple of different issues in what you say. Your tagged images requirement could be handled by a script. Have you tried writing or sourcing one? If not, why not, and what does that say about the wider need? Maybe I'll look again at my Locktastic plugin - I know I could now get it to import only those read only files, at least from the hard drive.

Update: I just looked at Locktastic again, and I had forgotten that the plugin does already import files marked as read-only, if that's how your camera tags pictures. So you can copy using the OS from the card to the hard drive, then use the plugin to pull those images into Lightroom. I've not tested it on a card, and think there would be a problem there, but I may be able to modify it to do so. You could then import from the card later, and bring in all its contents - Lr's duplicates control should kick in too. /Update

The other requirement is culling during Import. I have plenty of sympathy with high volume needs, experiencing them myself for periods and working closely with people who do so, though it tends to be in fields where PM is useless because of its inability to adjust (so much for Rory speaking for "any volume shooter") and where deadlines aren't too tight for Lightroom. I've said more than once that I would love a GPU-powered review of embedded previews, but in Library.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2015, 08:30:11 am by john beardsworth »
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jjj

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #138 on: October 17, 2015, 08:25:44 am »

I revisited Bridge over last few days and boy is it fast compared to LR with regard to previews and being able to cull images. Only underlines how painfully slow LR has become whilst BR has barelyt changed at all since I last used it for work around LR 2.3. When at that time LR was the much faster tool and why LR became my main workflow.
I can import to my dated folders using LR as before and whilst LR is taking forever to build standard previews, I can go through the pics and rate any I want to work on. Then update folder in LR to pick up the new metadata and filter down to those few. LR still takes an age to do 100% previews and reload them after being built.

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ButchM

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #139 on: October 17, 2015, 10:25:26 am »

Small gap. PM is a very good program with a strong focus on its small segment of the market. If Adobe did choose to go for that group, just how many features would they need to copy (stationery?) and how many loyal PM users would they gain? Would these be incremental users to Lr? Worthwhie?

There are a couple of different issues in what you say. Your tagged images requirement could be handled by a script. Have you tried writing or sourcing one? If not, why not, and what does that say about the wider need? Maybe I'll look again at my Locktastic plugin - I know I could now get it to import only those read only files, at least from the hard drive.

Update: I just looked at Locktastic again, and I had forgotten that the plugin does already import files marked as read-only, if that's how your camera tags pictures. So you can copy using the OS from the card to the hard drive, then use the plugin to pull those images into Lightroom. I've not tested it on a card, and think there would be a problem there, but I may be able to modify it to do so. You could then import from the card later, and bring in all its contents - Lr's duplicates control should kick in too. /Update

The other requirement is culling during Import. I have plenty of sympathy with high volume needs, experiencing them myself for periods and working closely with people who do so, though it tends to be in fields where PM is useless because of its inability to adjust (so much for Rory speaking for "any volume shooter") and where deadlines aren't too tight for Lightroom. I've said more than once that I would love a GPU-powered review of embedded previews, but in Library.

Locktastic is an option except for one small problem ... you have to use another option (workaround)  to get there. Workarounds really aren't solutions ... just more work. Not to mention, it does not remove the task of getting the image onto the HD so the plugin can see them.

I pay Adobe to furnish me with software solutions to ease my daily tasks ... and they actually want to receive a monetary reward for what they provide to me for as long as I breath air (and longer if I should expire before my annual agreement does) ...

I continue to pay for PV2012 ... which I already paid for  ... in 2012. I have paid for a Book module I can't use because I use vendors that have different page sizes, margins and bleeds than does Blurb and Adobe in all their wisdom doesn't think I am worth the effort to allow customization of same.

I also pay for a Maps module I do not need or use. I have paid for a facial recognition module I don't really need and I have been paying for a nearly useless Web module since it's inception.

Not once have I ever complained about the creation of. or the continued development of these modules (expect for my well documented complaints about hamstringing the Book module) or lobbied against their development or inclusion as I know there are many other users who do find value in them.

Why is it too much to ask for a few lines of code to assist me, and while a niche group, more than a few other like-minded Lr users, to have the ability to import only locked images? How many lines of code and how many years would it take Adobe to develop the feature? Heck, I was able to do this 5 years ago in Aperture without issue? If Apple could accomplish the task, how difficult must it be to offer? Why is it too complicated or unreasonable to ask my software provider of choice to serve my needs?

Sure I can see Adobe telling me I'm not worth the effort ... in fact not only are they going to ignore my request ... they would like to enhance my workflow further by stripping even more functionality I paid for without notice as a bonus. Just to please an unproven market segment that has yet to invest one single dime into Adobe's efforts. What I don't understand is my fellow user(s) lobbying against my idea and spend so much time trying to convince me how insignificant my concerns are?
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