What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?

[Jimbo57]

Another new upgrade released today. Promises to fix crashing and performance issues.

[Anthony.Ralph]

Who is the final decision maker at Adobe for Lightroom?  From what I have seen in the past it is not the product manager, but rather a key, influential engineer.  We all know who calls the shots for ACR.

Whilst what you say is/maybe true, the changes to the import section isn't anything to do with the develop module (aka ACR in different clothing).

Anthony.

[Rory]

Whilst what you say is/maybe true, the changes to the import section isn't anything to do with the develop module (aka ACR in different clothing).

Anthony.

I did not mean to suggest that. 

[Simon J.A. Simpson]

I don't see why they couldn't simply have a Basic and Advanced tab/button to satisfy both sets of users.

+1

[Anthony.Ralph]

I did not mean to suggest that.

Ahh... sorry I misunderstood.

Anthony.

[hjulenissen]

You're probably both right.  I've also had to design UIs for inexperienced users.  For complex tasks, there needs to be some way to deal with all types of user.  A well-designed UI is intuitive and not baffling to newcomers, but provides the additional functionality that more experienced users want. 

I friend of mine taught Java 101 for computer BSc students. This friend was shocked at the inability of 20-year olds (who had chosen an education in computers) to navigate the file system and find the files that contained this weeks assignements, let alone actually solving those assignements.

I don't know how to present files in a sensible way to experts and novices alike. As a relative newcomer to OSX, I don't find that system to be the end-all perfect system that one might expect from those who have "seen the light".

Presenting things that are conceptually "complex" to novice users seems like a very hard task. Thankfully, not all things needs that complexity. Some tasks are just simple, and should be presented as such to the users.

-h

[Simon J.A. Simpson]

I friend of mine taught Java 101 for computer BSc students. This friend was shocked at the inability of 20-year olds (who had chosen an education in computers) to navigate the file system and find the files that contained this weeks assignements, let alone actually solving those assignements.

I don't know how to present files in a sensible way to experts and novices alike. As a relative newcomer to OSX, I don't find that system to be the end-all perfect system that one might expect from those who have "seen the light".

Presenting things that are conceptually "complex" to novice users seems like a very hard task. Thankfully, not all things needs that complexity. Some tasks are just simple, and should be presented as such to the users.

-h

This is very interesting.  Many years ago, when I first came to using computers, I chose an Apple Mac over a PC because I found the navigation of the file system easier to understand and navigate.  I prefer graphical representations of things rather than text so the Apple system, which was then quite straight forward, was easy for me to grasp.  The system is simply hierarchical; a folder can contain anything, including files and other folders.  However, as time went on complexity has been aded to the GUI and it has, in my view, been partly deprecated by a policy of trying bring about harmonisation with the IOS system used on iPhones and iPads.  The philosophy behind IOS seems to be to hide the inner workings from the user so the filing system is not easily accessible.  IMO this has, to a degree, deprecated the transparency of the Apple Mac filing system which was one of its greatest strengths.

The unsimplified Import dialogue for Lightroom had the benefit transparency, of showing you exactly what you were doing; but it made for a complicated window with many choices which, when you are learning to use the application, is necessary to take some time to look at, absorb, and understand.  Now that I have grasped how it works I find it logical and helpful in importing images, whether RAW files/JPGs from a camera card, or existing PSD's from a hard disk, or whatever.  It also had the benefit of some redundancy (alternatives and options for importing), allowing the possibility of digging yourself out of a hole if you had screwed-up !

[jjj]

This is very interesting.  Many years ago, when I first came to using computers, I chose an Apple Mac over a PC because I found the navigation of the file system easier to understand and navigate.  I prefer graphical representations of things rather than text so the Apple system, which was then quite straight forward, was easy for me to grasp.

Was this pre-Windows then?

[jaclarkaus]

As a relative newcomer to OSX, I don't find that system to be the end-all perfect system that one might expect from those who have "seen the light".

Good old MS Dos was the best, even earlier windows - just simple and obvious.
Mac is a nightmare, as are the later versions of Windows where it seems a complete lottery as to where some files turn up - documents, app data, local/roaming ... etc.

[jjj]

As a relative newcomer to OSX, I don't find that system to be the end-all perfect system that one might expect from those who have "seen the light".

That's due to choice supportive bias which gets even stronger as the price of the purchase goes up. Hence the rabid nature of Apple fanbois.
OSX has plenty of problems and issues just like Windows. Data management of large amounts of data can be particularly painful. I highly recommend installing  Pathfinder  so you can bypass the execrable Finder as much as possible.

Presenting things that are conceptually "complex" to novice users seems like a very hard task. Thankfully, not all things needs that complexity. Some tasks are just simple, and should be presented as such to the users.

Apple can make very simple things dreadfully complex to do by removing buttons and or basic features in a wrongheaded attempt to make things easier. It makes their software simplistic and hard to use instead.

[hjulenissen]

Good old MS Dos was the best, even earlier windows - just simple and obvious.
Mac is a nightmare, as are the later versions of Windows where it seems a complete lottery as to where some files turn up - documents, app data, local/roaming ... etc.

I think that file navigation in Windows 95 or so was quite intuitive (although stability might not have been quite there). You had a set of "drives", and any file would be in a folder of your choice. Amazingly simple concept, amazingly efficient at (manually) finding stuff. When saving a file, it was relatively easy to actually specify where you wanted in (using whatever system made sense to you), and finding it at the exact same spot later.

Granted, many users simply saved _all_ of their files on their desktop. So some "auto-organization" (be it searches, default destinations or whatever) was probably sensible.

-h

[ednazarko]

Everything they pared, I completely understand if the target audience is the twice a month hobbyist.  I've worked with a lot of them in photography workshops, and these folks are going to love the changes.

However, they screwed up the options choices that someone who makes a living on what they shoot depend on.  I'm still trying to figure out how to do something I did ALL THE TIME when importing.

Here's the thing they didn't think about.  Guys like me, and my friends, who teach workshops, are now going to change from guiding newbies through the complexity to speaking ill of Lightroom.

It's bad.  I just got off of a call with several photographers and we've agreed to angel fund a startup in asset management and first level processing.  Dear Adobe - read a little history.... Wang.  Digital Equipment.  Owned their domains, disrespected their core in search of innovation that those outside their core didn't care about at all. 

[adias]

I think that file navigation in Windows 95 or so was quite intuitive (although stability might not have been quite there). You had a set of "drives", ...

The same file structure (you refer too in old OSs) is on Windows 10 and OS X El Capitan. Nothing changed.

[hjulenissen]

The same file structure (you refer too in old OSs) is on Windows 10 and OS X El Capitan. Nothing changed.

(I have no experience with older macs)

While the basic file systems may have been similar, the way that the OS _presents_ the file system certainly have changed. That is what I was referring to with "file navigation".

I would love for OSX to present my iPhone as a "removable drive" that I could simply move files into and out of. In the folder structure that makes sense to me. 3rd party applications might be able to do this, and terminal window gurus might be able to do similar things, but both of those come with certain drawbacks.

Both Microsoft and Apple seems to want to "abstract away" the fact that there is a file system at the bottom of their OS/application stacks. This may well benefit many users (shepard them away from doing bad choices), but it does cause loss of control with what is going on. Things just "magically happen".

This is why I am storing my images in a file structure that I own and maintain. Lightroom (or any better competitor I might choose at one time) may peek and look and render and search among those files as they see fit, but I am the boss when it comes to placing raw files in that structure.

-h

[sniper]

I find it strange that Adobe assume new users to be less computer literate that the earlier LR users, we were all new users at some point, yet it never seemed to be a problem figuring out the import part of LR before. Yet now is a world were every youngster spends hours a day on computers we seem to have to dumb things down for todays new users.
I suppose the question is how far do they go, what other parts of LR are too complicated for modern users, I really don't see a happy ending.

[john beardsworth]

I find it strange that Adobe assume new users to be less computer literate that the earlier LR users, we were all new users at some point, yet it never seemed to be a problem figuring out the import part of LR before. Yet now is a world were every youngster spends hours a day on computers we seem to have to dumb things down for todays new users.
I suppose the question is how far do they go, what other parts of LR are too complicated for modern users, I really don't see a happy ending.

They don't assume that. They've done "extensive studies" "over the years" that demonstrated Import was putting off people who might have been Lightroom users. See here

Lightroom has always hidden complexity that users don't need to understand - eg colour management.

[Damon Lynch]

I just got off of a call with several photographers and we've agreed to angel fund a startup in asset management and first level processing.

What is your vision and what are your goals?

[IanSeward]

They don't assume that. They've done "extensive studies" "over the years" that demonstrated Import was putting off people who might have been Lightroom users. See here

From Adobe:
Customers were universally unable to decipher the Import dialog without getting frustrated. Some people pushed forward, bolstered by spending time searching the web for help.  They might have been successful in importing files, but they didn’t feel successful.  Others gave up, deciding that Lightroom might not be the right product for them.

If this is the case why not include a video help of how to import into LR.  Is this thought just too revolutionary for Adobe?  Wouldn't this solve the issues they are talking about very efficiently?

If a one man band like Qimage Ultimate can provide training videos with their software why can't Adobe?

Ian
(LR user since V1)

[john beardsworth]

From Adobe:
Customers were universally unable to decipher the Import dialog without getting frustrated. Some people pushed forward, bolstered by spending time searching the web for help.  They might have been successful in importing files, but they didn’t feel successful.  Others gave up, deciding that Lightroom might not be the right product for them.
If this is the case why not include a video help of how to import into LR.  Is this thought just too revolutionary for Adobe?  Wouldn't this solve the issues they are talking about very efficiently?

Clearly not, Ian. The world isn't short of tutorial material, is it?

[Simon Garrett]

Clearly not, Ian. The world isn't short of tutorial material, is it?

Quite so.  Providing tutorials and instructions is a good idea, but many people won't use them.  Saying "well, if they can't be bothered to read the instructions or watch the videos, then it's their own fault" might be true, but it doesn't help sell product.  Clearly it's a bad idea to annoy existing users with a botched attempt to make it easier for new users, but a UI that Adobe has found to be offputting for new users is also a pretty bad idea.  Let's hope the next attempt is rather better.

Over the years I've watched on forums the reactions expressed by newcomers to LR (including people that don't use LR because they know - they just know - how awful it is, and how it forces an alien file structure and takes over your computer).  There seem to be two unfamiliar concepts to grasp:

• The function of the catalogue
• The nature of parametric non-destructive editing

If you haven't got your head around the catalogue - what it is, why it's used and its involvement in parametric editing - then the import process is going to seem positively bizarre.  In practice, importing usually involves two quite distinct functions: copying images from memory card to the hard drive (possibly renaming them on the way) and importing into the catalogue.  To me it's no wonder that people not familiar with all this can get confused. 

I can well understand why Adobe want to make the default import process very, very simple, and hide most of the options well out of view.  Many of those options are likely to confuse new users and lead them into bad choices, and might be better hidden in an "Advanced Mode" or some such, possibly with "there be dragons, don't go that place" warnings for new users. 

But don't remove those tricky options (unless there really is no sensible use for them), just hide them from default view.