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Author Topic: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?  (Read 46530 times)

jjj

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2015, 01:38:12 pm »

I agree about the import module short comings you mention, but the premise that this should be done in the library is flawed: it is dumb to copy 1000 raw files to a hard disk when you only want the 50 that are in perfect focus.  One of the strengths of Lightroom is it's focus on intelligent and efficient workflows.  Whoever worked on the import module obviously did not get that memo.
I'd say that premise of culling raw files that are undeveloped is the flawed workflow.
As is culling without 100% previews, as how can tell if something is properly sharp or not?
Copying files to disk does not take that long these days and if you are in that much of a hurry you'd be shooting JPEG and using photo mechanic instead.
I always copy my images to the hard disk before importing to LR anyway to make sure all data is intact. LR then simply moves them on same HD to the correct folders on import, whilst applying a basic develop preset to the shots.
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Rhossydd

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2015, 01:40:13 pm »

Hmm... well, in the Print Module you can choose print profile and rendering intent I suppose.  Can't think of any other.
Have a look at the export dialogue. You can export images with many inappropriate profiles which opens the door for all sorts of errors. Similarly you can soft proof with the wrong profile.
There's certainly room for error for those without enough CM knowledge.
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jjj

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2015, 01:40:41 pm »

Hmm... well, in the Print Module you can choose print profile and rendering intent I suppose.  Can't think of any other.  However, I'm sure you're not going to say it has anything like as many CM options as Photoshop. 
LR has no options as to the colour space it works it, as it always uses Melissa. After that, when you export to file/print you can choose the appropriate colour setting.
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ButchM

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2015, 02:00:49 pm »

Yes, I know, but even then Import remains a pretty crap place to review and compare images - eg where's a side by side comparison like in Library, how do you add a flag to one and not the other etc? Essentially this issue, and others like Move, are a case of Import being asked to be a workaround for failings elsewhere such as the lack of GPU-accelerated review of embedded previews in Library.

John, you misunderstand ... The reason I used quotations ... was for in-camera "flagged" or "locked" images. Many PJ's and sports shooters cull and pick out potential premium images chimping the camera's LCD during breaks in the shoot. Of course this not ideal in the truest sense ... but better to only take the time to import the images most desired, rather than all.

Personally, I never cull in the import dialog ... but if Lightroom had the ability to choose to only import those camera selects like can be done in PM and Aperture ... I would't have to either.
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AFairley

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2015, 02:06:59 pm »

Having had a chance to check out the changes, I will be skipping this "update."  It's great to have a "simple" interface for new users, and even have that interface be the default, but I don't see any reason to remove advanced options that some people (including me) rely on for their workflow.
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chez

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2015, 02:14:04 pm »

Agreed ... if Adobe really, truly wished to offer improvements and enhancements to the import process ... they should have offered a method to cut down the time it takes to import a batch of photos. If I were Adobe, I would strive to develop my software so as to allow users to avoid the option of purchasing competing options like Photo Mechanic in order to meet strict deadlines .... eventually, the grass may indeed be greener on the opposite side of the fence and result in a costly (to Adobe) migration if PM would ever improve upon it's feature set to make it a more fully capable option to Lr.

Like offering the option to forego the creation of previews until a later point in the process by utilizing the embedded jpegs in the interim. Or the option to only import "tagged" images so as to better meet deadlines.

This is how PM, Aperture and several other options have been able to much more quickly import images. And something I recall that was requested on the Adobe Labs forum as far back as the Lr 2 public beta ... and many, many times since ... alas the request has fallen upon deaf ears as once Again, Adobe knows better than we users what is important to our workflow.

Butch, don't say OUR when you do not represent everyone...not me for sure.
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ButchM

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2015, 02:16:52 pm »

Butch, don't say OUR when you do not represent everyone...not me for sure.

If you don't feel included at least make an effort to explain why you would not benefit from speedier more efficient time saving imports of images into Lr.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 02:19:08 pm by ButchM »
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hjulenissen

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #47 on: October 06, 2015, 03:11:39 pm »

hjulenissen has a history of complaining that PS and LR are too difficult for him to understand.
I find it increasingly difficult to keep my normally polite tone when I see your posts.
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He also claimed to be a software engineer or similar at one point, which seemed remarkably at odds with his ongoing difficulties in learning basic software tools.
If you want to call me a liar, then please do so up front. The kind of tools I use for my work tend to be made by and for software people, (generally) mathematically minded people who appreciate structure and order (well, perhaps the gcc options are not). Something that can be compactly described but has deep implications is a lot more rewarding (to me) to study than some random collection of man-made rules that come and pass at the blink of an eye. I am sceptical about UI and user-interaction, whether it is more like science (converging to some, hopefully optimal philosophy), or if is more like fashion (cycling between whatever is deemed fashionable at the time by some guru). The debate on "skeumorphism" makes me even more sceptical
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Apple do just that at times as it happens.
Yes and I generally applaud them for that, even if it can be painful.
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What really needs to happen is people like yourself have to realise is that progress is only made by moving on from the antiquated way of doing things.
What really needs to happen is for people like yourself to realise that your own preferences and experiences does not make you an expert on other peoples preferences. In fact, your condescending view on what everyone else "should" do is quite tiresome. It is ok for you to offer opinions on what goes into Lightroom, but they are just that, opinions (just like mine).

I am all for new ways of doing things, but I am opposed to "newness for its own sake". Restricting possibilities in Lightroom vs Photoshop was a good (new) thing. Doing the non-destructive/parametric/database thingy was a good (new) thing. Reinventing UI paradigms is seldom a good thing, and one should have _very_ good reasons to do so.
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Also needing to use a tutorial/guide to have new much better ways of doing things is far better and easier than staying with old but rather crap ways of working.
But needing a tutorial to have a new crap way of working is not any better than staying with the old crap way of working. In fact, it is considerably worse.
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Intuitive when used about software is mostly nonsense, because people almost always mean it's just like like something I used before.
And what is the problem? Without knowing, there is a bunch of things that we take for granted with our computers (like the mouse pointer moving right when we move the mouse to the left). Apple flipped the direction of scrolling in some OSX version and it created a lot of noise. In the end, I don't think that that particular change made me any more efficient. Some parts of the world insist on putting the steering wheel on the wrong side of the car. The point is, by re-using established conventions (from a particular OS, from a particular field/culture, etc), people are able to use the tool for something useful with less effort.

I am annoyed at the people living in my house before me, putting light switches at variable heights so that when I enter a dark room, I have to feel my way along the wall until I can find a switch. There is simply (for, say, 99% of the cases) no good reason to break with those conventions, but some (small) penalty for breaking with it. Sure I can live quite well with this particular flaw (I bought the house after-all).

-h
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 03:37:15 pm by hjulenissen »
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jjj

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #48 on: October 06, 2015, 03:57:32 pm »

I really appreciate how you spend the time to take something I say and then twist it to mean something different. That is when you aren't simply avoiding the point being made.
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Rory

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #49 on: October 06, 2015, 04:35:11 pm »

I'd say that while the 1000 are being copied to the hard disk (and backed up) in the background, in that same time you can be finding the 50 using the better review and comparison tools available in Library.

I do hope you are joking.  Until 1:1 previews are generated the performance in the Lightroom library is painfully slow, even using the latest and greatest hardware.

The obvious workflow is to filter out images as early as possible in the process.  When in doubt include for later review.  I'll just keep using Photo Mechanic.  At least they understand the needs of high volume shooters.  When I look at the ergonomics and speed of Photo Mechanic, and the speed and promise of FastRawViewer, I wonder why a company with the resources Adobe has cannot compete. 
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Rory

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #50 on: October 06, 2015, 04:44:35 pm »

I'd say that premise of culling raw files that are undeveloped is the flawed workflow.
As is culling without 100% previews, as how can tell if something is properly sharp or not?

Well, almost all sports and most wildlife photographers are using a flawed workflow then.

The embedded jpegs are just fine for evaluating focus.  You just need a tool that allows 1:1 viewing and fast rendering.  I'm not talking landscapes, but sports and wildlife photography, where you want to nail the eyes, and the way to do this is to take a lot of shots and then quickly pick the ones that worked.  When FastRawViewer has another couple of features, likely in the next release, we will have the best of both worlds: lightning fast rendering and evaluation using the raw file.
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hjulenissen

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #51 on: October 06, 2015, 05:18:56 pm »

I really appreciate how you spend the time to take something I say and then twist it to mean something different. That is when you aren't simply avoiding the point being made.
My point is simple: please go somewhere else. Find someone else to play with.

-h
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 05:25:05 pm by hjulenissen »
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john beardsworth

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #52 on: October 06, 2015, 05:43:54 pm »

The obvious workflow is to filter out images as early as possible in the process.  When in doubt include for later review.  I'll just keep using Photo Mechanic.  At least they understand the needs of high volume shooters. 

Well, their market is those high volume shooters who need immediate turnaround. That's far from all high volume shooters, or a big enough segment to justify Adobe making the Import dialog any more than a poor culling tool.
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jjj

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #53 on: October 06, 2015, 05:44:20 pm »

The embedded jpegs are just fine for evaluating focus.  You just need a tool that allows 1:1 viewing and fast rendering.
Embedded jpegs do not allow 100% viewing though. They are usually much lower res than raw file, so are more like viewing a full screen image in LR than a 100%.
So not quite good enough to judge true sharpness.
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Rory

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #54 on: October 06, 2015, 05:53:19 pm »

Embedded jpegs do not allow 100% viewing though. They are usually much lower res than raw file, so are more like viewing a full screen image in LR than a 100%.
So not quite good enough to judge true sharpness.

Hmmm.  I'm shooting with a D810 and a 7DII.  I'm pretty sure they generate full size embedded jpegs.  Is this not the case?

Anyway it works for a lot of folks.
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ButchM

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #55 on: October 06, 2015, 06:05:21 pm »

Embedded jpegs do not allow 100% viewing though. They are usually much lower res than raw file, so are more like viewing a full screen image in LR than a 100%.
So not quite good enough to judge true sharpness.

Baloney. Photographers do so utilizing other software options each and every day. Successfully so.

I base that assertion on over 40 years of shooting action sports as a full time working professional. Endorsed my first check for images published in Feb. 1975 and have been shooting high school, college and pro sports ever since. I am not guessing at my assertions. I live it and practice daily.

Can you get more detail from viewing a 100% RAW render vs the embedded jpeg? Absolutely. Does that equate that an experienced eye can't discern with enough accuracy to narrow down to the few selects to invest their time in importing for further processing ... vs importing the entire shoot? No.

While I would not recommend the workflow for all genres of photography ... there is no flaw in the process I and others have described. Is it ideal for all users? Of course not. Is it doable for high volume shooters? Without question. Do I ever discover that I made a wrong choice by making estimations based upon embedded jpegs? ... Almost never.

The bottom line is: Adobe should be offering broader options and improved efficiency for importing images into Lightroom ... not narrowing the options. I, for one, do not pay them to place more limitations upon my workflow. When other much more meager developers have offered such capabilities for years and years ... why is it wrong to request such capabilities from a software developer that measures it's revenues in the billions?
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Damon Lynch

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #56 on: October 06, 2015, 06:08:00 pm »

Embedded jpegs do not allow 100% viewing though. They are usually much lower res than raw file, so are more like viewing a full screen image in LR than a 100%.
So not quite good enough to judge true sharpness.

That's totally wrong, as this sample from an EOS-1D X illustrates:

$ exiv2 -p p pr /data/Photos/processing/2015/20150926/20150926-1900-199-iso5000-f5.6-11mm-40.cr2
Preview 1: image/jpeg, 160x120 pixels, 17786 bytes
Preview 2: image/tiff, 668x448 pixels, 1795584 bytes
Preview 3: image/jpeg, 5184x3456 pixels, 3253382 bytes
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Damon Lynch

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #57 on: October 06, 2015, 06:12:53 pm »

I'm not talking landscapes, but sports and wildlife photography, where you want to nail the eyes, and the way to do this is to take a lot of shots and then quickly pick the ones that worked.

Beats me why no one has published an importing program (or improved an existing one)  that automatically detects the eyes and flags which of a group are in best focus.  Can't be too difficult these days, given advances in image recognition and machine learning. It might be computationally expensive though. It would be great if the fast raw viewer folks are planning on doing that.
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hjulenissen

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #58 on: October 06, 2015, 06:18:37 pm »

...
The bottom line is: Adobe should be offering broader options and improved efficiency for importing images into Lightroom ... not narrowing the options. I, for one, do not pay them to place more limitations upon my workflow. When other much more meager developers have offered such capabilities for years and years ... why is it wrong to request such capabilities from a software developer that measures it's revenues in the billions?
I don't think that it is ever "wrong" to make a request.

It may or might not make any sense though. Adobe makes some product for some target audience spending some available resources. Based on (I would think) some judgement about where they are likely to get a good return on their investement. If they reason that they can gain 1000 paying "soccer mums" by screwing over 3 professional sports photographers, should they not do it?`

I tend to see Lightroom as a balancing act between narrowing in (certain) possibilities, "dumbing it down" (so to speak) in order to (ideally) make a leaner, faster and more user-friendly application than e.g. Photoshop (and perhaps DXO and rawtherapee?). In some cases I very much agree with their choices (largely the develop module) in other cases I think that they must be insane (anything that involves selecting from a list of umpteen preset sizes instead of just giving me the freedom to place an image somewhere at some size).

I do understand that Lightroom is used by both professionals with high demands in certain aspects and amateurs (like myself) who perhaps value ease-of-use higher.

Personally, I never liked the Import functionality, so I am positive to a change. I did not try the new one yet, so I am preserving the right to dislike it as well :-)

-h
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 06:21:17 pm by hjulenissen »
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ButchM

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Re: What’s gone in Lightroom CC 2015.2 and Lightroom 6.2 ?
« Reply #59 on: October 06, 2015, 09:20:16 pm »


Personally, I never liked the Import functionality, so I am positive to a change. I did not try the new one yet, so I am preserving the right to dislike it as well :-)

-h

I am not opposed to change ... just needless change for the sake of change alone.

I'm all for simplification and streamlining the import process ... but on this attempt .... I am not convinced Adobe put forth their best effort ... yet I and those 1,000 soccer mums are required to reward all those at Adobe responsible for the effort regardless if that effort actually enhances MY bottom line.
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