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Author Topic: RAW/Jpeg and Lightroom questions  (Read 3586 times)

evert67

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RAW/Jpeg and Lightroom questions
« on: October 04, 2015, 12:10:04 pm »

I've recently started to use Lightroom for managing photos. I've also started to use it for editing, but I'm not sure whether I like it better than Bridge/Camera Raw from Photoshop. I've got a few questions involving RAW and Jpeg photographs.

- I've set up my camera so it stores both RAW and Jpeg. The RAW files are better for editing, the Jpeg files are usually nicer "out of the box". However, when sorting out the photographs in the Library of Lightroom (just after importing), I've got both. That is not handy, 'cause it multiplies the number of photographs by two. And most often, when I like a photographs, I want to keep both the Jpeg and the RAW. Has anyone got tips for a workflow in which you have both the RAW and the Jpeg of the same photographs?

- In most cases the Jpeg was "developed" almost perfectly by my camera. Just not completely perfectly. So then I start editing, which I always do on the RAW file. However, the RAW file was not "developed" and can be quite different from the Jpeg. I would first like to recreate a Jpeg-like photograph from the RAW file, but in that case it can be quite difficult. Are there any tips for this?

- I can edit Jpeg files in Lightroom, too. However, Lightroom doesn't use and XMP file for storing adaptations, like it does for RAW files. Where does it store its adaptations? (If it is in the Jpeg file itself, why don't other Jpeg-viewers show the adaptations?)

Thanks!
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digitaldog

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Re: RAW/Jpeg and Lightroom questions
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2015, 12:27:35 pm »

- I've set up my camera so it stores both RAW and Jpeg. The RAW files are better for editing, the Jpeg files are usually nicer "out of the box". However, when sorting out the photographs in the Library of Lightroom (just after importing), I've got both. That is not handy, 'cause it multiplies the number of photographs by two. And most often, when I like a photographs, I want to keep both the Jpeg and the RAW. Has anyone got tips for a workflow in which you have both the RAW and the Jpeg of the same photographs?
I'd work at making the raw's better out of the box by creating better starting points (presets, perhaps custom or tuned DNG camera profiles), then forget JEPG all together...
Quote
- I can edit Jpeg files in Lightroom, too. However, Lightroom doesn't use and XMP file for storing adaptations, like it does for RAW files. Where does it store its adaptations? (If it is in the Jpeg file itself, why don't other Jpeg-viewers show the adaptations?)
For rendered images (JPEG, TIFF etc), the XMP can be stored inside the data file itself. Turn Auto write XMP on in preferences. You can have the XMP saved in the database alone and/or the file container (JPEG).
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howardm

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Re: RAW/Jpeg and Lightroom questions
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2015, 12:46:48 pm »

I was reading something recently (forgot what, maybe written by Mr. Schewe?) that indicated that setting 'Auto write to XMP' is a major performance hit in LR.

Just pointing out what I read.

YMMV

evert67

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Re: RAW/Jpeg and Lightroom questions
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2015, 01:51:04 pm »

Thanks digitaldog!

I'd work at making the raw's better out of the box by creating better starting points (presets, perhaps custom or tuned DNG camera profiles), then forget JEPG all together...

Have you got any tips for this. My problem is that this is usually quite difficult. It also depends on the photograph. How do I get a "general" well-working preset?

Quote
For rendered images (JPEG, TIFF etc), the XMP can be stored inside the data file itself. Turn Auto write XMP on in preferences. You can have the XMP saved in the database alone and/or the file container (JPEG).

Ok, but how do I get third-party Jpeg-viewers to recognize this XMP data?
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Jimbo57

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Re: RAW/Jpeg and Lightroom questions
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2015, 02:24:15 pm »

I would start by making a basic change to your workflow:

Unless you have a strong, specific, reason for wanting a Jpeg immediately after shooting (e.g. sending pics to an editor for immediate publication), think about shooting Raw only - and, thereby, avoiding the duplication.

Lightroom is a superb program - but it is specifically designed for Raw processing (or, rather, processing from Raw files - which remain unaltered by the process). If you haven't done so already, get hold of Jeff Schewe's book "The Digital Negative" - the second edition has just been published and it is bang up to date.

One of the HUGE advantages of Raw shooting is that virtually all the extraneous settings on your camera can be ignored, as they have no effect upon the image data contained within the Raw file (excepting obvious things like shutter speed, ISO, aperture, focus, etc. - I had to add that because some numptie thought I included them in "settings" when talking about Raw capture recently!). Most importantly of all (in my opinion) Raw files are agnostic in terms of colour space - so the colour space settings on your camera are irrelevant. Lightroom processes in "Melissa RGB" (ProPhoto with a more sensible gamma) and then you can export from Lightroom in whatever colour space suits your purpose (or right-click into Photoshop in ProPhoto for starters.)
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evert67

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Re: RAW/Jpeg and Lightroom questions
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2015, 02:43:57 pm »

Thanks, Jimbo!

My main question is that, if I start shooting in RAW only, how do I edit these RAW file to resemble the normal JPeg file my camera makes? Cause out of the box the Jpeg file from my camera are often a lot better. It can be a nuisance to edit the RAW files so they resemble the JPeg files.'

Any advice on this? Presets? Or other options?


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Torbjörn Tapani

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Re: RAW/Jpeg and Lightroom questions
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2015, 04:45:54 pm »

Thanks, Jimbo!

My main question is that, if I start shooting in RAW only, how do I edit these RAW file to resemble the normal JPeg file my camera makes? Cause out of the box the Jpeg file from my camera are often a lot better. It can be a nuisance to edit the RAW files so they resemble the JPeg files.'

Any advice on this? Presets? Or other options?

You can try using the profiles provided by Adobe. It is likely set to Adobe Standard, try if Camera Standard or Camera Landscape etc does it for you.
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James R

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Re: RAW/Jpeg and Lightroom questions
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2015, 11:24:11 pm »

Thanks, Jimbo!

My main question is that, if I start shooting in RAW only, how do I edit these RAW file to resemble the normal JPeg file my camera makes? Cause out of the box the Jpeg file from my camera are often a lot better. It can be a nuisance to edit the RAW files so they resemble the JPeg files.'

Any advice on this? Presets? Or other options?

Keep shooting jpeg, if that is the look you are after.  I don't find jpegs to be the "best" look in most situations.  Also, to keep jpegs and raws separate, simple use subfolders for each type file.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 11:27:54 pm by James R »
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Simon Garrett

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Re: RAW/Jpeg and Lightroom questions
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2015, 04:14:48 am »

I was reading something recently (forgot what, maybe written by Mr. Schewe?) that indicated that setting 'Auto write to XMP' is a major performance hit in LR.

Just pointing out what I read.

YMMV

I've heard that said, although on a quick and not very scientific test I was unable to detect any difference.

However, IMHO it's a very important backup of that metadata.  Catalog backups are (by default) weekly, or however often you do backups.  The auto write to xmp is instantaneous.  To me that backup would be worth a performance hit.

Ok, but how do I get third-party Jpeg-viewers to recognize this XMP data?

I don't know of any non-Adobe program that reads Adobe edit metadata and can recreate the edits contained in them. 
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Tony Jay

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Re: RAW/Jpeg and Lightroom questions
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2015, 05:01:04 am »

I've heard that said, although on a quick and not very scientific test I was unable to detect any difference.

However, IMHO it's a very important backup of that metadata.  Catalog backups are (by default) weekly, or however often you do backups.  The auto write to xmp is instantaneous.  To me that backup would be worth a performance hit.

I don't know of any non-Adobe program that reads Adobe edit metadata and can recreate the edits contained in them.
Actually Simon, you can have your cake and eat it too.
I would never use auto back up to XMP.
Instead at the end of a session I would select all the images altered and then ask Lightroom to save to XMP.
No performance hit and all metadata backed-up.

Tony Jay
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Josh-H

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Re: RAW/Jpeg and Lightroom questions
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2015, 05:28:56 am »

Quote
Instead at the end of a session I would select all the images altered and then ask Lightroom to save to XMP.
No performance hit and all metadata backed-up.

+1. Its an easy habit to get into.
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john beardsworth

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Re: RAW/Jpeg and Lightroom questions
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2015, 06:01:07 am »

No performance hit and all metadata backed-up.

Not all, remember. History steps, stacking, virtual / soft copies, pick flags, anything re collections.... The real backup of your Lightroom work is the backup of your catalogue.

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mvsoske

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Re: RAW/Jpeg and Lightroom questions
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2015, 08:07:59 am »


My main question is that, if I start shooting in RAW only, how do I edit these RAW file to resemble the normal JPeg file my camera makes? Cause out of the box the Jpeg file from my camera are often a lot better. It can be a nuisance to edit the RAW files so they resemble the JPeg files.'

Any advice on this? Presets? Or other options?

What I have done to get me close to having the RAW file look like the jpeg when importing is to take a jpeg and RAW file and adjust the RAW file in LR - using compare or switching back and forth - until the RAW file looks as close to the jpeg as possible using all of the develop tools. Then, make a develop preset of the RAW file and give it a name reflecting it's intent, i.e. landscape, camera standard, etc.  Then, upon importing your RAW files, attach the develop preset.

Mark

jjj

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Re: RAW/Jpeg and Lightroom questions
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2015, 09:39:19 am »

I was going to say much what Mark just did. Have a basic import preset that applies to your files on import and job is done.
To get the jpeg look you basically sharpen, add some contrast with tone curve and boost saturation. Also apply the camera calibration profile you would use on your jpegs when made in camera - calibrations is found in bottom panel in Dev module.
Obviously you may well need to fine tune a bit more than that by using clarity, vibrance etc but the 4 attributes above will get you in ball park.

But remember you can go one better than that. Create a preset for the raw file that is nicer looking than the camera jpeg and use that instead.
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AlterEgo

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Re: RAW/Jpeg and Lightroom questions
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2015, 09:55:32 am »

get hold of Jeff Schewe's book "The Digital Negative" - the second edition has just been published and it is bang up to date....Lightroom processes in "Melissa RGB"

is it Jeff or his readers  ;D ... or Jimbo57 did not actually read the book ?
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jjj

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Re: RAW/Jpeg and Lightroom questions
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2015, 10:02:36 am »

Actually Simon, you can have your cake and eat it too.
I would never use auto back up to XMP.
Instead at the end of a session I would select all the images altered and then ask Lightroom to save to XMP.
No performance hit and all metadata backed-up.
+1. Its an easy habit to get into.
Incredibly easy to forget to do too.
Less easy is recalling what images I had worked on.

I have auto save turned for those very reasons.
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Manoli

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Re: RAW/Jpeg and Lightroom questions
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2015, 10:25:55 am »

I would never use auto back up to XMP.
Instead at the end of a session I would select all the images altered and then ask Lightroom to save to XMP.

And how exactly do you do that ?
AFAIK, saving to XMP is a setting in catalog preferences.
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digitaldog

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Re: RAW/Jpeg and Lightroom questions
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2015, 10:48:39 am »

I was reading something recently (forgot what, maybe written by Mr. Schewe?) that indicated that setting 'Auto write to XMP' is a major performance hit in LR.
In the old days yes, not anymore.
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digitaldog

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Re: RAW/Jpeg and Lightroom questions
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2015, 10:51:19 am »

And how exactly do you do that ?
AFAIK, saving to XMP is a setting in catalog preferences.
Command S key on Mac. But you're not saving any time (you can pay me now or pay me later). Turn Auto save XMP on and forget about it. There's zero speed hit any more, certainly on a modern system running some version of LR that's older than 2.X or so. Store all this important stuff only in the catalog? No thanks.
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Manoli

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Re: RAW/Jpeg and Lightroom questions
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2015, 11:23:41 am »

Command S key on Mac. But you're not saving any time (you can pay me now or pay me later). Turn Auto save XMP on and forget about it. There's zero speed hit any more ...

Thanks, Andrew - but it was purely OOC ( out-of-curiosity). I , like you, have auto save XMP set. Not only do I see zero speed hit, but if you do exit Lr before XMP has finished writing data to disk,  a dialog box appears informing you that Lr will finish writing data next time you open it.  Downside, what downside ?
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