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Author Topic: What's the "true" Velvia? (film simulation)  (Read 10971 times)

biker

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What's the "true" Velvia? (film simulation)
« on: October 03, 2015, 03:47:36 pm »

Hi, I'm a bit confused because many RAW development programs as well as other post-processing software can perform FujiFilm Velvia film simulations but the results are so different!
Does anybody have enough experience with true Velvia films to say, what of the simulations has the "most Velvia taste"? Thanks.

Here are four samples from RAW development programs I'm usually using:

1) SilkyPix (RAW File Converter downloaded from the FujiFilm site). Here, results are almost identical to the in-camera Velvia film simulation. By common sense, this should be right as this is provided directly by FujiFilm. But some say it doesn't look as the Velvia films did.
2) Darktable built-in Velvia film simulation.
3) RAWTherapee with HaldCLUT extension. Film simulation "Fuji Velvia 100 Generic".
4) RAWTherapee with HaldCLUT extension. Film simulation "Fuji Velvia 50".
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Mark D Segal

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Re: What's the "true" Velvia? (film simulation)
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2015, 04:04:36 pm »

May I ask a philosophic question? And let me preface by saying - each to his/her own when it comes to taste, so your desire to replicate some kind of "Velvia look" is perfectly legitimate. But my question is "why bother"? What is there about Velvia that makes it superior to the kind of dial-in perfection (to our taste) we can obtain just making the best possible digital rendition that our raw converter and our skills allow? Velvia has a fixed chracteristic curve, like all film. Maybe for a number of images it blocks-up shadow detail too much. Kodachrome was famous for this. Maybe for other kinds of images it's too saturated? These days we can create a bespoke interpretation for each kind of photo we make, wherein the tonality is totally under our control and we can render it just about any way we like. Don't you think it a reasonable idea to kind of set yesteryear's technology aside in our minds and just explore what we can do with an unconstrained mindset using today's highly flexible digital workflows?
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biker

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Re: What's the "true" Velvia? (film simulation)
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2015, 04:31:44 pm »

But my question is "why bother"?
Yes, I think you're right. But for some artistic reasons one might sometimes want to add the specific film taste in the same way as sound engineers add old gramophone record cracks to the digitally perfect recordings, to let them sound less "sterile". For that reason, there are also expired film simulations.
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fdisilvestro

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Re: What's the "true" Velvia? (film simulation)
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2015, 04:34:20 pm »

Hi,

First, you need to specify which Velvia film you want to simulate. Velvia 50, 100 and 100F are three different films with completely different looks. Second, those simulations emulate at best scanned velvia. If you want to get the same result as seeing a velvia slide on a light table, I think it is not possible.

biker

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Re: What's the "true" Velvia? (film simulation)
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2015, 04:49:56 pm »

That explains why RAWTherapee "Fuji Velvia" "50" and "100 Generic" (tha't probably the one without "F") are so different.
Are there any resources on the internet that would show the differences (from scanned films)? The Wikipedia page doesn't show much.
Or, what was the most popular/most typical Velvia? I guess it was the original RVP50...? On the other hand, it's most different to the in-camera Velvia provided by FujiFilm. Thanks.
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fdisilvestro

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Re: What's the "true" Velvia? (film simulation)
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2015, 05:16:34 pm »

The most popular was RVP (50), but besides its low ISO, it was bad for long exposures (reprocity failure) so i think that's why developed 100. In my experience 100 was very prone to turn neutral tones to magenta if underexposed. 100F was supposed to give color Fidelity (F), but I never liked.

From your examples, I would say that the Darktable simulation definetly does not look as Velvia and perhaps the better is Fuji. You might want to try DxO Film Pack as they have a free trial.

Velvia is still available and the best way would be to do a side to side comparison, but I understand this might be expensive and not convenient.

Mark D Segal

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Re: What's the "true" Velvia? (film simulation)
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2015, 05:21:39 pm »

Yes, I think you're right. But for some artistic reasons one might sometimes want to add the specific film taste in the same way as sound engineers add old gramophone record cracks to the digitally perfect recordings, to let them sound less "sterile". For that reason, there are also expired film simulations.

That makes sense I think - occasionally for moods where one wants "nostalgia".
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Alexey.Danilchenko

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Re: What's the "true" Velvia? (film simulation)
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2015, 04:14:15 am »

Does anybody have enough experience with true Velvia films to say, what of the simulations has the "most Velvia taste"? Thanks.

You should try RPP - it has true film simulation (LUT profiles of real films build by shooting targets on those films and builing and tuning profiles in a lab). It does have two versions of V50 profiles.
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Simon Garrett

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Re: What's the "true" Velvia? (film simulation)
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2015, 07:12:54 am »

There's a Velvia 100 simulation in Nik Color Efex Pro, but I find all the Nik film simulations are various ways of oversaturating colours in different lurid and (to me) unappealing ways. 

As Mark says, except when one wants some nostalgic look, modern raw processors produce (to me) better colour rendition than film does. 
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biker

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Re: What's the "true" Velvia? (film simulation)
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2015, 07:16:52 am »

You might want to try DxO Film Pack as they have a free trial.
Thanks for the tip, I'm going to try that. I believe they already did the comparison hard work and also better than I could. Btw. I've visited your web and you've got beautiful shots on it!

You should try RPP - it has true film simulation (LUT profiles of real films build by shooting targets on those films and builing and tuning profiles in a lab). It does have two versions of V50 profiles.
Thanks. Unfortunately, I'm not on MAC and running the program on a virtual machine would be a bit complicated for use.
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Alexey.Danilchenko

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Re: What's the "true" Velvia? (film simulation)
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2015, 04:28:42 pm »

Thanks. Unfortunately, I'm not on MAC and running the program on a virtual machine would be a bit complicated for use.

After I tried RPP I moved my raw development to Mac and never looked back. And I don't even own a Mac hardware - use Tonymacs site to install it on PC (not supported by Apple but works just the same).
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: What's the "true" Velvia? (film simulation)
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2015, 05:13:37 pm »

A Google image search entering the term..."Velvia 50 Landscapes" I found a myriad of color renderings and found the linked sample Velvia image to be the closest in composition and subject matter to your posted image...

http://www.fredmiranda.com/hosting-data//500/768161994_6x6_Zeiss_TL_WoodlandLake.jpg

Going by that I came up with this rendering below in ACR. If it's what you're looking for I can provide the settings.


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torger

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Re: What's the "true" Velvia? (film simulation)
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2015, 03:19:41 am »

Simulating films is an interesting challenge and sometime in the distant future it might be something I'll try to develop software in.

The philosophical question "why bother?" I'd answer like this: think of photographers that want to learn shoot film, or those that shoot both film and digital, and want the look to match. So you can work with light meters etc and learn film shooting technique without wasting any film frames. For this to work the film simulation must behave quite accurately. Personally I don't really care what the reason is, I find film simulation to be an interesting technical challenge.

But let's first answer the question why the look is so different. Many of the simulations are simply by eye manual hand-tunings for some specific picture, the HALD package for rawtherapee is that AFAIK. Others like DxO (and RPP I assume) are based on test charts which I think is more reliable. Still it will probably depend quite a bit on which light the matching was made, which likely is something similar to D50. How colors are modulated when you change light is probably quite different from film to camera, which is something I'd like to experiment if making film simulation software. I think it may be necessary to make a multi-illuminant simulation to match colors well over a wider range.

Then we have how film contrast is simulated. Many don't simulate contrast at all and let you freely set the contrast in the software. This is not so good if it comes to simulating film behavior, as the contrast is an integral part of the look. Velvia has very strong contrast, looks "black crushed" in many scenarios, so to learn shooting well with Velvia one have to be an expert on its contrast.

Then we have over-exposure simulation. As far as I know no current film simulator simulates film over-exposure in a good way. Some aspects are really hard to simulate, such as the center of the sun becomes yellow on the film, that would require raw reconstruction in the raw converter to be able to simulate at all (as a digital camera clips straight off). But assuming we have no raw clipping and then push the exposure slider, no current film simulation will simulate the film's behavior but instead used their standard "digital" over-exposure handling.

I don't know this, but I would suspect to simulate some of the "color quirks" of real Velvia you'd need to have a really aggressive LUT that could cause broken gradients, and then the tradeoff between smoothness and simulation accuracy will probably affect the result quite heavily. Commercial profiles always prioritize smoothness, robustness easy of use etc over accuracy so I wouldn't trust Fuji's simulation to be most accurate.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 03:31:28 am by torger »
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Alexey.Danilchenko

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Re: What's the "true" Velvia? (film simulation)
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2015, 04:09:08 am »

and RPP I assume

Don't assume - ask Iliah ;)

The V50 in RPP (especially the second one) works really well - I use it pretty musch all the time since it gived me a great starting point tonality and colour wise. And that is the main reason for me to use film simulations - Kodak and others did spend all these years perfecting film so why not use that.

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Czornyj

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Re: What's the "true" Velvia? (film simulation)
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2015, 07:36:18 pm »

Kodak and others did spend all these years perfecting film so why not use that.
Maybe because it's virtually impossible? Film simulation will only work to some degree for a given illuminant + typical objects. The more mixed lightning and tricky objects, the worse... And that's only the beginning of the problems, as it's wide gamut, 100000:1 contrast ratio medium, light table spectra dependent, and has non linear reaction across CMY density TRC's...
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 07:38:23 pm by Czornyj »
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Alexey.Danilchenko

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Re: What's the "true" Velvia? (film simulation)
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2015, 04:23:29 am »

Maybe because it's virtually impossible? Film simulation will only work to some degree for a given illuminant + typical objects. The more mixed lightning and tricky objects, the worse... And that's only the beginning of the problems, as it's wide gamut, 100000:1 contrast ratio medium, light table spectra dependent, and has non linear reaction across CMY density TRC's...
I am not using them to simulate the exact film response if you didn't get it from my post and that's not what I was referring to.
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Czornyj

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Re: What's the "true" Velvia? (film simulation)
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2015, 04:32:22 am »

I am not using them to simulate the exact film response if you didn't get it from my post and that's not what I was referring to.

You won't acheive film look unless you simulate exact film response, which is impossible.
Not to mention it's physically impossible to replicate the 100000:1 CR Velvia apparance on ~1000:1 CR display.
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Re: What's the "true" Velvia? (film simulation)
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2015, 06:34:52 am »

Nostalgia is all good and well, but these films (Velvia and Kodachrome) achieved their deep, saturated look mostly with a very steep curve, and then you underexposed slightly to avoid blowing out the highlights (or the film was rated a little high). Some photographers still make great images this way.

That's basically how we all worked with transparency film, at least for natural light shooting. Keep the highlights, that was the main thing. The shadows just had to go.

IOW I go with Mark. If that's the look you want, then just do it.
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Alexey.Danilchenko

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Re: What's the "true" Velvia? (film simulation)
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2015, 08:46:31 am »

You won't acheive film look unless you simulate exact film response, which is impossible.
Not to mention it's physically impossible to replicate the 100000:1 CR Velvia apparance on ~1000:1 CR display.
Why don't you try something like RPP and see what is possible and what is not.
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biker

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Re: What's the "true" Velvia? (film simulation)
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2015, 04:57:17 pm »

Thank you all for your tips! I've just performed some comparisons between DxO Film Pack and Hald CLUT (RAW Therapee) and they're completely different at first glance. ::)
Basically, Hald CLUT makes Velvias (50 and 100G) distinctly more purplish while DxO has a little stronger contrast. Not so dramatic but still obvious are differences between Provia a Astia films (100 Gen.).

Aside from the fact that DxO Film Pack cannot open Sony SR2 files and crashes while opening X-Trans RAFs (I was finally successful with PEFs from my old Pentax - re-processing once processed JPEGs isn't a good idea, I think), I will believe DxO labs know what they're doing and won't take HaldCLUT too seriously).
I might try that RPP when I find time.
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