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Author Topic: Oregon college shooting: Obama says 'thoughts and prayers are not enough'  (Read 6444 times)

tom b

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My basic philosophy is, "Is it working, what can I do to fix my mistakes?".

Oregon college shooting: Obama says 'thoughts and prayers are not enough'.

Are America's gun laws working, No! There needs to be a fundamental change in thoughts. How many more mass shootings have to happen before Americans come to realise that their gun laws are not working.

It took a conservative government "gun buy back" in Australia to prevent a mass shooting since Port Arthur. This is a time to think about how Americans can fix their failed attitudes towards guns.

Cheers,
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Tom Brown

TwistedShadow

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Are you American?
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tom b

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Are you American?

What does that mean? In Australia we haven't had a mass shooting since a very conservative government decided "enough is enough" and introduced strict gun controls. You can still fire a gun at a firing range and licensed shooters can still shoot feral animals.

I keep reading repeatedly about mass shootings in America and nothing is being done to prevent the next one.

Once again, if something is not working, what are you doing to fix it?

Cheers,
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Tom Brown

Rob C

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Whilst I wish it were not so, I believe that it's too late for the U.S. to introduce gun controls.

There are already too many guns in circulation, and the 'honest, law-abiding' citizen would be the only one surrendering a weapon (s)he legally holds, because it would, I expect, be registered and easy to trace back ownership/surrenders.

Thugs, on the other hand, have never declared weapons, so only they would remain armed, creating ever more opportunity for violence with impunity. Shit, I'd own a 9mm Paulo B here if i could. Why? Because living in what every winter becomes a deserted estate, makes me a wonderful opportunity for prowling thieves. Nobody expects to find much in an empty holiday home, but in an occupied one... the thieving imagination might run riot, regardless of the unknown reality.

Right to shoot intruders? Damned right! Anyone doing that invasion of another's life should expect to get blown away. Why in hell not? Kiss 'em instead? A little slap on the wrist? If you are caught in the act, there are no mitigatory circumstances, no opportunities for perversions of the legal process, nor even false convictions: you are guilty and you are finished and wiped off the public face. For ever.

It's too late for the States and that protection afforded by a gun at home will never come here because of the example set by the nutters doing their thing in U.S. schools and elsewhere. The only folks still protected here are the ones with legally-held hunting weapons.

Rob C

tom b

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Rob, you are probably right. In Australia there was a palpable outrage after the Port Arthur massacre. Gun control was embraced by the left and right. I have no idea how Americans can just accept mass murders as part of their gun culture.

Cheers,
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Tom Brown

Torbjörn Tapani

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I don't think "thugs" is appropriate to describe people who commit mass murder. It is a different set of people. So if only "thugs" had guns. You'd be better off.
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Rob C

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I don't think "thugs" is appropriate to describe people who commit mass murder. It is a different set of people. So if only "thugs" had guns. You'd be better off.

True! But unless you can screen everybody with a gun licence application, you won't weed 'em out.

Even then, you'd probably fail: seems psychopaths have very able brains and are most adept at creating pleasing, expected reactions.

Rob C

Chairman Bill

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The 2nd Amendment says nothing about a right to own ammunition. Maybe there need to be controls on who can buy it, and how much at any one time. Maybe you should tax it really, really heavily. People might still get shot, but shooters will probably be a lot more selective about who's worth shooting.

AlterEgo

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The 2nd Amendment says nothing about a right to own ammunition. Maybe there need to be controls on who can buy it, and how much at any one time. Maybe you should tax it really, really heavily. People might still get shot, but shooters will probably be a lot more selective about who's worth shooting.

right... taxes shall be used to fight the guns ! just like they were used to bring down some criminals  8)
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Rob C

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The 2nd Amendment says nothing about a right to own ammunition. Maybe there need to be controls on who can buy it, and how much at any one time. Maybe you should tax it really, really heavily. People might still get shot, but shooters will probably be a lot more selective about who's worth shooting.


With all the money slopping about in the drug industry I doubt it'll make a penny worth of difference what it costs.

Rob C

Justinr

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Re: Oregon college shooting: Obama says 'thoughts and prayers are not enough'
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2015, 11:59:43 am »

I believe that the average death toll through guns is well over 11,000 in the US annually which puts the Oregon shooting in some sort of perspective, although I would not wish to belittle such an event. That such a death toll should appear acceptable suggests to me that the problem is one of culture rather than law, no doubt there are plenty of laws and regulations to protect the population but they are obviously not working. Gun ownership may indeed be part of the problem as those countries with a higher number of guns per capita tend to have a higher death rate from firearms but there are so many ifs and buts involved it's a field of study in its own right.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 03:08:06 pm by Justinr »
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Isaac

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Re: Oregon college shooting: Obama says 'thoughts and prayers are not enough'
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2015, 03:32:37 pm »

… I believe that the average death toll through guns is well over 11,000 in the US annually…

2013, United States, Firearm Deaths and Rates per 100,000, All Races, Both Sexes, All Ages
   Deaths   Population   Crude Rate
   33,636   316,128,839   10.64
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Oregon college shooting: Obama says 'thoughts and prayers are not enough'
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2015, 06:45:40 pm »

The report I read online (sorry, can't remember where) said that this was the 45th campus/college shooting this year. They didn't say whether it was the 45th mass shooting (nutcase shootings strangers) or whether it also included normal everyday shootings between people who know each other, jealous boyfriends/girlfriends, drug related, etc. Either way, it's not good.

I detect exasperation, not to say paralysis, all round. But noting will come of this. If shooting 20 or so young children at Sandy Hook didn't precipitate action, this certainly won't.

There appears to be an unhealthy mix of societal anxiety and too easy access to firearms afoot. I detect no adult response to dealing with these things.

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Robert

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Oregon college shooting: Obama says 'thoughts and prayers are not enough'
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2015, 07:34:00 pm »

The real question is the actual percentage of Americans willing to implement stricter gun controls.

I suspect that it is 60~70%, but does someone have stats from an independent source (I mean some entity not bribed by gun lobbies)?

Cheers,
Bernard

PeterAit

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Re: Oregon college shooting: Obama says 'thoughts and prayers are not enough'
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2015, 07:53:35 pm »


... protection afforded by a gun at home ...

Rob C

If only it were true. It's been known for quite a while that a gun in the home (in the US) is three times as likely to be used for suicide, in an accidental shooting, or in family violence than it is to be used against an intruder. THREE TIMES! This does not include the many legal guns that are stolen by criminals. This is not "liberal propaganda," it is statistics from police departments and hospitals.
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Rand47

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Re: Oregon college shooting: Obama says 'thoughts and prayers are not enough'
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2015, 10:26:32 pm »

While I'm not against stricter gun control, it needs to be tighter and enforced uniformly.  It seems to me we're missing something as a root cause of the type of mass voilence we've seen in recent years.  When I was a boy growing up in the U.S., I can't remember a single incident of mass violence in any school at any level, anywhere.   And firearms were every bit as available as they are today.  In fact, more wiedely available.  Every pick up truck in my town had a couple of rifles in gun racks in the back window.

So, I don't think the root cause has anything to do with firearms.  i wonder what is the root cause? 

Rand
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Rand Scott Adams

Tarnash

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Re: Oregon college shooting: Obama says 'thoughts and prayers are not enough'
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2015, 11:04:57 pm »

I am not a US citizen and my feelings about this, the latest in a long, long list of similar tragedies, are simple bewilderment, that similar events can continue to happen.  That and sincere compassion for those who have lost loved ones.  It seems to me that there are a number of ways that events of this sort can be substantially reduced (although I accept that it is impossible to guarantee their complete elimination).  The principal problem, as I see it, is the lack of political will to take the `hard decisions' or accept the consequences of doing so.  The second amendment to the US Constitution is certainly capable of interpretation.  It reads:  "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."  It does not explicitly grant unfettered rights to ownership of firearms nor does it prescribe a right to unrestricted access to any kind weapon. There are existing restrictions on who may keep and bear arms and on the types of arms they can possess.  I accept that this is a problem of `super-tanker' proportions and, like a super-tanker it is not going to be stopped or turned around in a hurry.  But surely, surely, it's time to change course.   
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TwistedShadow

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Re: Oregon college shooting: Obama says 'thoughts and prayers are not enough'
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2015, 11:51:25 pm »

What does that mean? In Australia we

Call it a personality flaw but I have issues with another country telling me how to live.

Anyhow, more Americans are killed in automobile wrecks but no one is up in arms banning cars. The problem is the system is broken. I had a friend stabbed to death and giving 10 years with possible parole in 5 years and due to over crowded prisons was set to be released in 2 yrs...we was able to get it pushed back to 5 yrs. My friend is in the grave and his killer is free walking the streets. A lot of countries have banned firearms and they all saw an increase is violent crimes involving knives. It got so bad in England they started registering knives and selling stab proof vest. They even made supposed stab proof knives...this lasted long enough for criminals to figure out they could kill someone jabbing them in the eye sockets.

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Isaac

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Re: Oregon college shooting: Obama says 'thoughts and prayers are not enough'
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2015, 01:22:01 am »

It got so bad in England…

"In 2013/14, there were 9.2 offences of homicide per million population."

Compare to 51.0 per million population ("2013, United States, Homicide Injury Deaths Crude Rate per 100,000" 5.1).
« Last Edit: October 03, 2015, 01:39:20 am by Isaac »
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tom b

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Re: Oregon college shooting: Obama says 'thoughts and prayers are not enough'
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2015, 02:31:02 am »

"Fear of stricter laws was a very big reason gun sales in the first half of this year were close to $2 billion dollars, according to a presentation this month by Smith & Wesson."

I just keep scratching my head. Mass shootings and stricter gun laws promote greater gun sales. Buying more guns will prevent mass shootings, WTF.

Just saying,
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Tom Brown
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