On democracy

[AlterEgo]

AlterEgo,

Article 5 was invoked following a non-nuclear terrorist attack on the USA on 11 September 2001. The outcome was not negotiation.

Now consider a nuclear strike.

and it was against whom my I ask  ... now you understand the difference between situations... as one chineese general put it more bluntly recently

[Rob C]

It takes two to have an argument and neither side were angels, a lot (not all) of UK management was basically crap and they got what they deserved. The whole history of England is based on an us and them philosophy, industrial relations of the seventies and eighties were just another symptom of it.

You're out of date: I'm talking about my experiences in the mid-50s onwards.

I saw communist - yes, the C word (I personally knew the people) - manipulation of both apprentices and men; I watched as lone voices were squashed, as people were made to fear for their skins. No, nothing about them 'n' us as in employers/workers, all about internal fights in fucking unions. Someone should tell you why Rootes Group (cars, for the youthful amongst us) in Linwood, Scotland had to fold.

After those grim days, into private practice as a photographer. Eventually I began to do calendars, which meant design work and getting that copied in a process house and turned into printing plates. Fine for a while, then SLADE (Society of Lithographic Artists, Designers and Engravers) decided not so fine, and folks like me had to get their 'stickers' to put on the artwork before we could get our work touched by the process house... I'm not sure who stopped that racket, but it did end.

Sorry, but you have to live it to believe it, and that's the problem: those who are in it are understandably too scared for their asses, and those out are irrelevant. It's been behind the Brit industrial decline all along. Not really anything to do with bad workmanship; more to do with people being held back and not allowed to put in 100% of what they are capable of putting in, and I don't mean more work for less money, I mean doing the job the best they know how. We had/have some marvellous craftsmen and engineers - when allowed to do their job they could beat the world, as they did for a long, long time. Who could match the Clyde, the Tyne, Crewe?

Rob C

[AreBee]

AlterEgo,

Sorry, but my interest in continuing our conversation has expired. No offence intended.

[Justinr]

You're out of date: I'm talking about my experiences in the mid-50s onwards.

I saw communist - yes, the C word (I personally knew the people) - manipulation of both apprentices and men; I watched as lone voices were squashed, as people were made to fear for their skins. No, nothing about them 'n' us as in employers/workers, all about internal fights in fucking unions. Someone should tell you why Rootes Group (cars, for the youthful amongst us) in Linwood, Scotland had to fold.

After those grim days, into private practice as a photographer. Eventually I began to do calendars, which meant design work and getting that copied in a process house and turned into printing plates. Fine for a while, then SLADE (Society of Lithographic Artists, Designers and Engravers) decided not so fine, and folks like me had to get their 'stickers' to put on the artwork before we could get our work touched by the process house... I'm not sure who stopped that racket, but it did end.

Sorry, but you have to live it to believe it, and that's the problem: those who are in it are understandably too scared for their asses, and those out are irrelevant. It's been behind the Brit industrial decline all along. Not really anything to do with bad workmanship; more to do with people being held back and not allowed to put in 100% of what they are capable of putting in, and I don't mean more work for less money, I mean doing the job the best they know how. We had/have some marvellous craftsmen and engineers - when allowed to do their job they could beat the world, as they did for a long, long time. Who could match the Clyde, the Tyne, Crewe?

Rob C

That is only a small part of Britain's industrial decline, one that is jerked for by the right when they are looking for scapegoats. What about the shear lack of investment in tools, technology and design that was a major characteristic of post war British manufacturing. When Triumph eventually folded in 1982 how come they were still using an engine first produced in 1938 and tools which also predated the war?  What happened to the Marshal Aid? The UK got over twice as much as Germany. Just from the farming point of view why did David Brown and Nuffield/Leyland/Marshal disappear when an ex gun factory in Finland (pop: 7m) not only created a successful tractor brand but also exported that success to Brazil where Valtra still has a handsome slice of the market? Land Rover had their market to themselves and then simply got outclassed by foreign competition, why? How come it took Toyota and Nissan to come over and show the British how to build cards for the modern age? Non of this was due to bolshie commies on the shop floor but it all added to the loss of our industrial edge. BTW, there is a strong argument to suggest that Britain's relative industrial decline started before the turn of the century as the Germans started specialising in electrical goods and chemicals instead of the much more capital intensive heavy engineering. They didn't have an empire to flog any old stuff to either but had to sell the goods on quality and price.

Sure there were great British craftsmen and great British pioneers but the world needed industrialists and their machines, Soichiro Honda worked that out while running an arms factory with slave labour during the war and he took that lesson with him when he started making motorbikes. The rest, as they say, is history.

[Rob C]

If you cared to read what I'd written and understand it instead of simply react from your political stance, you'd find the answers to your own questions.

Investment? When the labour force is being manipulated to cripple your every attempt at streamlining, innovating, and on and unholy on. Yeah right, dream on baby; you kill the golden goose, soon no effin' eggs for you, the boss nor even the janitor, never mind your little/huge union.

You mention British Leyland: didn't your folks ever tell you about Red Robbo, by any chance, was he represented as hero or villain?

As I said in my earlier post, you had to live in it, not read fairy tales in the little red book.

Never mind, it's not worth my wasting my time on this stuff; I'm well out of all of it.

[Justinr]

If you cared to read what I'd written and understand it instead of simply react from your political stance, you'd find the answers to your own questions.

Investment? When the labour force is being manipulated to cripple your every attempt at streamlining, innovating, and on and unholy on. Yeah right, dream on baby; you kill the golden goose, soon no effin' eggs for you, the boss nor even the janitor, never mind your little/huge union.

You mention British Leyland: didn't your folks ever tell you about Red Robbo, by any chance, was he represented as hero or villain?

As I said in my earlier post, you had to live in it, not read fairy tales in the little red book.

Never mind, it's not worth my wasting my time on this stuff; I'm well out of all of it.

Sigh!

Which decade are we talking about now? First you chide me for talking about the 70's and 80's instead of the 50's and then you mention Red Robbo who was in fact active in the err... 70's!

The rest of your diatribe is also bollux, yes, Rob C is talking out of his ring piece no matter how persuasively he arranges the words. May I suggest you take your very own rightwing nostrums, wrap them in those treasured old copies of the Telegraph and cast them far out to sea where they belong.

Just for the record I have never been a member of a union because I object to the closed shop, but that won't conform to your prejudices so I guess you'll turn back to whatever wine you are supping and mutter and fume about how anyone who dares to challenge your BS must automatically be a commie and can therefore be safely dismissed.

Sorry mate, I just don't buy into your sad self justifying piffle.

[Rob C]

Just before I sign off for the evening:

You asked about Japan; did you forget about culture, the work ethic, the difference in mentality and the sense of loyalty? Did you forget the little matter of wage differentials between there and Britain in those early days? Oh, did you forget that even there, the golden days have slowly give way to wage inflation, previously unheard off layoffs; the fact that labour is much cheaper elsewhere in the neighbourhood, and that workmanship is just as good?

With the British industries, did nobody tell you about the business of lines of demarcation? Have you any idea what they were? Your building's water pump goes futt here in Spain and you can call a plumber or an electrician: either will fix your problems just as cheerfully. Can you do that yet in Britain? Are you surprised Ford, Volkswagen et al. have some of their factories here, too, just for good measure and global security? Valencia says thank you very much, Britain!

Oh, don't call me mate; I'm not.

Rob C

[Justinr]

Just before I sign off for the evening:

You asked about Japan; did you forget about culture, the work ethic, the difference in mentality and the sense of loyalty? Did you forget the little matter of wage differentials between there and Britain in those early days? Oh, did you forget that even there, the golden days have slowly give way to wage inflation, previously unheard off layoffs; the fact that labour is much cheaper elsewhere in the neighbourhood, and that workmanship is just as good?

With the British industries, did nobody tell you about the business of lines of demarcation? Have you any idea what they were? Your building's water pump goes futt here in Spain and you can call a plumber or an electrician: either will fix your problems just as cheerfully. Can you do that yet in Britain? Are you surprised Ford, Volkswagen et al. have some of their factories here, too, just for good measure and global security? Valencia says thank you very much, Britain!

Oh, don't call me mate; I'm not.

Rob C

I didn't ask you about Japan, I mentioned Honda myself. But anyway, the Japanese were so keen on the discipline you adore that they imposed upon it millions of imported labourers whether they liked it or not. After the war Honda and his designer came up with the Honda Cub (1958 if memory serves me correctly), this went on to become the worlds best selling vehicle and is still in production and is still being copied the world over. One of the secrets of its success was the fact that it was designed to be built by unskilled labour, the machine was king in his factories. Meanwhile, the poor old British workmen in the motorbike factories had to deal with worn out machines that took a craftsman to operate because they were so old, inaccurate and unreliable.

You might recall the Meriden cooperative? This was a collection of workers who were so bolshie that they actually locked themselves into the factory and continued to produce bikes with their own time and even money to begin with. A brave attempt but it failed because they couldn't compete with the Japanese who had modern products for the modern world, not worthy but tired designs from four decades beforehand, which is all the management had left them.

[Rob C]

Sigh!

1.  Which decade are we talking about now? First you chide me for talking about the 70's and 80's instead of the 50's and then you mention Red Robbo who was in fact active in the err... 70's!

The rest of your diatribe is also bollux, yes, Rob C is talking out of his ring piece no matter how persuasively he arranges the words. May I suggest you take your very own rightwing nostrums, wrap them in those treasured old copies of the Telegraph and cast them far out to sea where they belong.

Just for the record I have never been a member of a union because I object to the closed shop, but that won't conform to your prejudices so I guess you'll turn back to whatever wine you are supping and mutter and fume about how anyone who dares to challenge your BS must automatically be a commie and can therefore be safely dismissed.

2.   Sorry mate, I just don't buy into your sad self justifying piffle.

If you want to make a point, it's always a good idea to start from where a point can be made.

1.  The 50s were mentioned as my first immersion into the industrial landscape, my baptism in hell, you might say: there was no implication that that was to be the only period about which I would write, nor was it ever suggested that your Red Hero was part of that decade. The objective was to demonstrate that the troubles in Brit. Ind. didn't begin in the 70s or 80s, which you quoted, but long before, way before my own 50s, in fact, but as I wasn't there to understand, I began where I began. My personal knowledge extended right up into the mid-eighties, beyond which I'd have to rely upon news reports. But at least, unlike some, I had personal experience of what I write.

2.  Why would I have to 'self-justify' anything? I got out as quickly as I could and led a good life doing, successfully, something that I still love today. Of what need I be sad? Rather do I sniff in the air a little of the same green stuff that soured so much in industry... envy is a fine basis for winning votes, but a failure as a way of living one's own life.

But you know that.

Cheers,

Rob C

[Justinr]

If you want to make a point, it's always a good idea to start from where a point can be made.

1.  The 50s were mentioned as my first immersion into the industrial landscape, my baptism in hell, you might say: there was no implication that that was to be the only period about which I would write, nor was it ever suggested that your Red Hero was part of that decade. The objective was to demonstrate that the troubles in Brit. Ind. didn't begin in the 70s or 80s, which you quoted, but long before, way before my own 50s, in fact, but as I wasn't there to understand, I began where I began. My personal knowledge extended right up into the mid-eighties, beyond which I'd have to rely upon news reports. But at least, unlike some, I had personal experience of what I write.

2.  Why would I have to 'self-justify' anything? I got out as quickly as I could and led a good life doing, successfully, something that I still love today. Of what need I be sad? Rather do I sniff in the air a little of the same green stuff that soured so much in industry... envy is a fine basis for winning votes, but a failure as a way of living one's own life.

But you know that.

Cheers,

Rob C

Oh dear, A night's sleep hasn't settled your head at all it seems.

Rob, you sit out there in the sun reading dog eared old copies of the Telegraph or the Spectator or whatever and fulminate against the dreadful place that the UK has become since you ran away and how it is all the fault of the commies, although your definition of what a communist actually is seems to depend on how much you dislike an individual rather than a classification based on their political views. Yet you haven't a clue what was going on really, only that you had an unhappy experience by which you have extrapolated the whole condition of the country. No doubt out there in southern Spain there are also many more retired folk who are of the same blinkered outlook and you all comfort each other in your hatred of whatever it is you are hating at the moment, but the world keeps turning, dragging you with it, much to your chagrin. 

You may not be sad, but it is rather sad watching you eat yourself up in loathing of others for no good reason other than your sense of superiority. You are either playing with semantics in an attempt to deflect valid points made or you are a fool, I don't believe you are the latter so kindly stop acting it.

[Rob C]

Oh dear, A night's sleep hasn't settled your head at all it seems.

Rob, you sit out there in the sun reading dog eared old copies of the Telegraph or the Spectator or whatever and fulminate against the dreadful place that the UK has become since you ran away and how it is all the fault of the commies, although your definition of what a communist actually is seems to depend on how much you dislike an individual rather than a classification based on their political views. Yet you haven't a clue what was going on really, only that you had an unhappy experience by which you have extrapolated the whole condition of the country. No doubt out there in southern Spain there are also many more retired folk who are of the same blinkered outlook and you all comfort each other in your hatred of whatever it is you are hating at the moment, but the world keeps turning, dragging you with it, much to your chagrin. 

You may not be sad, but it is rather sad watching you eat yourself up in loathing of others for no good reason other than your sense of superiority. You are either playing with semantics in an attempt to deflect valid points made or you are a fool, I don't believe you are the latter so kindly stop acting it.

You sound exactly like the idiots you are trying to attack! Well done!

God rest your funny little mind!

Nighty night, Irene.

Rob C

[Justinr]

You sound exactly like the idiots you are trying to attack! Well done!

God rest your funny little mind!

Nighty night, Irene.

Rob C

Running away again. You seem to make quite a habit of it.

[Manoli]

Rob, you sit out there in the sun reading dog eared old copies of the Telegraph or the Spectator or whatever and fulminate against the dreadful place that the UK has become since you ran away and how it is all the fault of the commies, although your definition of what a communist actually is seems to depend on how much you dislike an individual rather than a classification based on their political views. Yet you haven't a clue what was going on really, only that you had an unhappy experience by which you have extrapolated the whole condition of the country. No doubt out there in southern Spain there are also many more retired folk who are of the same blinkered outlook and you all comfort each other in your hatred of whatever it is you are hating at the moment, but the world keeps turning, dragging you with it, much to your chagrin. 

You may not be sad, but it is rather sad watching you eat yourself up in loathing of others for no good reason other than your sense of superiority. You are either playing with semantics in an attempt to deflect valid points made or you are a fool, I don't believe you are the latter so kindly stop acting it.

If that isn't an ad hominem  ...
Shame on you and your ilk.

[Justinr]

If that isn't an ad hominem  ...
Shame on you and your ilk.

Who are you accusing of whatever here?

Are you somehow suggesting that Rob is innocent of directing bile and hatred in my direction?

[tom b]

Probably a good time to lock this thread.

Cheers,

[Rob C]

Probably a good time to lock this thread.

Cheers,

Please not!

I feel no pain from these barbs because I know from where they come, and the projection they actually are. I left another site about twelve years ago because of this same poster with the ostrich complex, and it did nobody any good, least of all me!

I bade him buenas noches a post or two ago, so as far as I'm concerned, he doesn't exist, which I'm sure makes both of us perfectly content... let the thread live!

;-)

Rob C

[Justinr]

Please not!

I feel no pain from these barbs because I know from where they come, and the projection they actually are. I left another site about twelve years ago because of this same poster with the ostrich complex, and it did nobody any good, least of all me!

I bade him buenas noches a post or two ago, so as far as I'm concerned, he doesn't exist, which I'm sure makes both of us perfectly content... let the thread live!

;-)

Rob C

And I am looking forward to some answers I have posed above rather than your retreating into petty fibs and fabrications every time time your comfortable little prejudices are challenged.

We can start with you explaining just how you come to the conclusion that I am a communist?

[Telecaster]

Coulda been an interesting broad-scope discussion here. Sad, but typical, that it so quickly descended into grievance-airing and sniping. Which should tell us something deep-seated, maybe even intractable, about human nature: our unwillingness to acknowledge that the world beyond our own nose goes about its business regardless of what we say, think or do. Other people live other lives, feel other feelings, think other thoughts…and they just keep on doing it. Attempts to constrain such a crazy whirl of thought & emotion & behavior may be successful for awhile—think the Soviet Union, the Inquisition or the various current aspirants to similar levels of clampdown—but in the end they fail because the whirl never stops. No dystopia can clamp down hard enough…and no utopia can stave off boredom long enough.

Politics & government attract and are thus full of people who think they can control the whirl. Hoard all the resources. Narcotize the population. Purify thought & belief. Enforce stasis. "Keep the peace." IMO this is all medievalist delusion. Time for a more thorough & accurate understanding of human nature to prevail.

-Dave-

[jjj]

Investment? When the labour force is being manipulated to cripple your every attempt at streamlining, innovating, and on and unholy on. Yeah right, dream on baby; you kill the golden goose, soon no effin' eggs for you, the boss nor even the janitor, never mind your little/huge union.

You mention British Leyland: didn't your folks ever tell you about Red Robbo, by any chance, was he represented as hero or villain?

As I said in my earlier post, you had to live in it, not read fairy tales in the little red book.

Never mind, it's not worth my wasting my time on this stuff; I'm well out of all of it.

You seem to be confusing power crazed idiots with  genuine political leanings. That's just their excuse, you have the same sort of ignorant stupidity on the right. Just justified in a different way.
Unions or bosses with too much power are not a good thing for all involved.

[Justinr]

You seem to be confusing power crazed idiots with  genuine political leanings. That's just their excuse, you have the same sort of ignorant stupidity on the right. Just justified in a different way.
Unions or bosses with too much power are not a good thing for all involved.

Good lord, I find myself in agreement!

Progress! 

When it comes to the fall of Britain's industry the blame is usually firmly placed on the bolshie workforce but it doesn't take much investigation to realise that is only part of the story, in fact there is a great deal more and I even wrote a book about it.