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Author Topic: On democracy  (Read 11047 times)

BernardLanguillier

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On democracy
« on: October 01, 2015, 04:38:24 am »

My friends,

Just a quick and basic question.

Do you think that, in a democracy, the majority should decide where the country should be headed on key topics?

Or is it better to leave that to a minority of smarter than average people who know what's good for the majority?

Genuine question.

Cheers,
Bernard

Chairman Bill

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Re: On democracy
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2015, 04:53:37 am »

I think it should all be left up to me to decide

Justinr

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Re: On democracy
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2015, 05:02:32 am »

My friends,

Just a quick and basic question.

Do you think that, in a democracy, the majority should decide where the country should be headed on key topics?

Or is it better to leave that to a minority of smarter than average people who know what's good for the majority?

Genuine question.

Cheers,
Bernard

The latter is not a democracy yet it is akin to what we have here, the basic difference being that it seems to be the dumber than average who are pulling the levers.

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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: On democracy
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2015, 06:35:48 am »

In my country (Portugal), we get to vote for the parliament, who then nominates a prime minister, who then proposes a government to the president. This happens every 4 years, if the government lasts that much.

We get to vote for the president (every 5 years), who has the power to dissolve the parliament, should the government fall for any reason.

This should work fine, were it not for the fact that candidates to prime ministers never keep their election promises... so what is new...

So in a democracy, I believe that the parliament, elected by the people, is the appropriate body to make decisions. Now, we can also have referendums, if the issues at stake are not "normal": we had a few ones in recent times, for example about abortion.

But we did not have a referendum on joining the Euro, or several EU treaties that impose tight rules on budget, for example. These have brought fundamental changes to the way we live in Portugal, and in Europe, which were not part of a normal election cycle.

We are going to have parliament election on 4 October, and it may well happen that the winning party (polls at ~36%) will not have the majority in the parliament (less deputies than all the other parties combined). It will be up to the president to decide whether to: accept a minority government of one party; or decide on a possible government with a majority of all other parties combined.

The latter has never happened in our history before; so again, the majority would be made not from the party with the most votes, but from a combination of all the other parties. Is this democracy? Yes, because in the end, it is up to the parliament to propose a government that does not have the majority in the house, or a government that has the majority in the house, should all the other parties agree to do so.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: On democracy
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2015, 07:13:54 am »

My friends,

Just a quick and basic question.

Do you think that, in a democracy, the majority should decide where the country should be headed on key topics?

Or is it better to leave that to a minority of smarter than average people who know what's good for the majority?

Neither, because they are an oversimplification.

Try this, which is closer to what it is (or should be), which (amongst others) includes safeguarding the rights of minorities ...

Cheers,
Bart
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Petrus

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Re: On democracy
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2015, 07:36:22 am »

At least here (Finland) it used to be that the population (majority) voted smarter than average people to the parliament, who then made the decisions. This also for the workers & farmers parties, where the electorate was not so well educated. Parliament was trusted to make the best choices and there was not so much public discussion (before the Net).

Now, with the rise of the populist parties it seems that people have started voting dumber than average candidates to the parliament… Making dumb comments and proposals to get media attention.
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Rob C

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Re: On democracy
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2015, 09:43:24 am »

At least here (Finland) it used to be that the population (majority) voted smarter than average people to the parliament, who then made the decisions. This also for the workers & farmers parties, where the electorate was not so well educated. Parliament was trusted to make the best choices and there was not so much public discussion (before the Net).

Now, with the rise of the populist parties it seems that people have started voting dumber than average candidates to the parliament… Making dumb comments and proposals to get media attention.


You've been watching Britain's Labour party holding its conferences!

As Justinr wrote, the dumber people are getting put into the top jobs. The party above has just decided to allow itself to be headed by a gentleman who has just declared that he will never press the nuclear button under any circumstances, destroying, in a sentence, the unused strength of the nuclear deterrent. It's real strength? It offered certain, retaliatory destruction, to anyone stupid enough to fire the first round. If you remove that, as so many 'earnest' people seem to desire, the only outcome possible is that those who don't share the same interest in remaining protected from other's nuclear armaments will have no alternative but to give up when the first push actually does come to shove.

It's so bloody simple: if you are the smallest, weakest kid in school, you are the one who will get bullied. Nobody, including the original gang of bullies, is going to mess with the boxing champion. Why does this seem to escape so many left-leaning people? I suspect that it actually doesn't; I also suspect that they have an agenda in creating Western weakness.

Communism has failed everywhere it has been tried/enforced; the only places where allegiance remains is where it has never been experienced.

Rob C

SZRitter

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Re: On democracy
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2015, 09:48:02 am »

My friends,

Just a quick and basic question.

Do you think that, in a democracy, the majority should decide where the country should be headed on key topics?

Or is it better to leave that to a minority of smarter than average people who know what's good for the majority?

Genuine question.

Cheers,
Bernard

Your second one is a republic, not a democracy.

Now for a bit of fun data theory. A hot term in the tech industry is called Big Data, and it has answers for this very topic. The larger and larger of set of people you ask a question, the more accurate the answer will become. Or, at least that is how the theory goes. So, if you can get the majority of people to respond in a true democracy, it should be better than a few elected lawmakers making the decision. That is the theory, anyways.

But, both systems have a problem, in that they can be rigged. In a democracy, the media, where almost all people will get their information, can be used to mislead and sway the outcome. In a republic, the individual lawmakers can be influenced to sway one way or another.
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AreBee

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Re: On democracy
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2015, 10:19:33 am »

Rob,

Quote
It's so bloody simple: if you are the smallest, weakest kid in school, you are the one who will get bullied. Nobody, including the original gang of bullies, is going to mess with the boxing champion.

Quote from: Jeremy Corbyn
There are five declared nuclear weapon states in the world. There are three others that have nuclear weapons. That is eight countries out of 192...So 187 countries don’t feel the need to have a nuclear weapon to protect their security.
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AlterEgo

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Re: On democracy
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2015, 11:14:48 am »

The party above has just decided to allow itself to be headed by a gentleman who has just declared that he will never press the nuclear button under any circumstances, destroying, in a sentence, the unused strength of the nuclear deterrent.
the point of deterrent as it is implemented in a relevant countries (which UK is not) is that in certain circumstances the button is simply pressed by other people (not president or whoever is the chief executive) and quite possible just automatically.
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jjj

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Re: On democracy
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2015, 11:40:35 am »

Now for a bit of fun data theory. A hot term in the tech industry is called Big Data, and it has answers for this very topic. The larger and larger of set of people you ask a question, the more accurate the answer will become. Or, at least that is how the theory goes. So, if you can get the majority of people to respond in a true democracy, it should be better than a few elected lawmakers making the decision. That is the theory, anyways.
That only works when you ask educated and informed people on the topic they are knowledgeable about.
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jjj

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Re: On democracy
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2015, 11:59:45 am »

You've been watching Britain's Labour party holding its conferences!

As Justinr wrote, the dumber people are getting put into the top jobs. The party above has just decided to allow itself to be headed by a gentleman who has just declared that he will never press the nuclear button under any circumstances, destroying, in a sentence, the unused strength of the nuclear deterrent. It's real strength? It offered certain, retaliatory destruction, to anyone stupid enough to fire the first round. If you remove that, as so many 'earnest' people seem to desire, the only outcome possible is that those who don't share the same interest in remaining protected from other's nuclear armaments will have no alternative but to give up when the first push actually does come to shove.
Alternatively....

"Think of it this way: Corbyn declared to Britain's potential enemies that with him in charge they could disregard a multi-billion pound weapon system.
Or, perhaps, put it like this: a man with a lifetime commitment to scrapping Britain's deterrent promised not to kill untold thousands of innocent people if he had the opportunity.
Many politicians choose not to be so frank."


Quote
It's so bloody simple: if you are the smallest, weakest kid in school, you are the one who will get bullied. Nobody, including the original gang of bullies, is going to mess with the boxing champion. Why does this seem to escape so many left-leaning people? I suspect that it actually doesn't; I also suspect that they have an agenda in creating Western weakness.
That's simplistic paranoid nonsense that the Daily Mail would be proud to print. As is this...

Quote
Communism has failed everywhere it has been tried/enforced; the only places where allegiance remains is where it has never been experienced.
Corbyn is left wing, he is not a communist. That like saying you're a Nazi because you have a right wing viewpoint. Not sure why you even mention communism in context of not wanting nuclear weapons, after all the USSR was the other side in the nuclear arms race.
Besides all those failed communist societies were in reality oligarchies with a few powerful + rich people in control and a downtrodden populace. Which could also describe a lot of right wing states.
In fact the difference between the far right and far left is just that the excuse used to behave in the same crappy way to others is different. The end results are much the same.
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Justinr

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Re: On democracy
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2015, 01:09:05 pm »


You've been watching Britain's Labour party holding its conferences!

As Justinr wrote, the dumber people are getting put into the top jobs. The party above has just decided to allow itself to be headed by a gentleman who has just declared that he will never press the nuclear button under any circumstances, destroying, in a sentence, the unused strength of the nuclear deterrent. It's real strength? It offered certain, retaliatory destruction, to anyone stupid enough to fire the first round. If you remove that, as so many 'earnest' people seem to desire, the only outcome possible is that those who don't share the same interest in remaining protected from other's nuclear armaments will have no alternative but to give up when the first push actually does come to shove.

It's so bloody simple: if you are the smallest, weakest kid in school, you are the one who will get bullied. Nobody, including the original gang of bullies, is going to mess with the boxing champion. Why does this seem to escape so many left-leaning people? I suspect that it actually doesn't; I also suspect that they have an agenda in creating Western weakness.

Communism has failed everywhere it has been tried/enforced; the only places where allegiance remains is where it has never been experienced.

Rob C

Don't worry, the US will be there to press it for him, and for Cameron come to that.
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Rob C

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Re: On democracy
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2015, 03:36:30 pm »

Alternatively....

"Think of it this way: Corbyn declared to Britain's potential enemies that with him in charge they could disregard a multi-billion pound weapon system.
Or, perhaps, put it like this: a man with a lifetime commitment to scrapping Britain's deterrent promised not to kill untold thousands of innocent people if he had the opportunity.
Many politicians choose not to be so frank."

That's simplistic paranoid nonsense that the Daily Mail would be proud to print. As is this...
Corbyn is left wing, he is not a communist. That like saying you're a Nazi because you have a right wing viewpoint. Not sure why you even mention communism in context of not wanting nuclear weapons, after all the USSR was the other side in the nuclear arms race.
Besides all those failed communist societies were in reality oligarchies with a few powerful + rich people in control and a downtrodden populace. Which could also describe a lot of right wing states.
In fact the difference between the far right and far left is just that the excuse used to behave in the same crappy way to others is different. The end results are much the same.


jjj

You puzzle me: reading this, I can't decide which point of view you are actually espousing. Neither can I see from whence cometh your suggestion that the option to press the 'button' was based upon any desire to kill zillions of innocent people; I imagined that it was clearly the case that the intent behind any deterrent was to prevent anyone from pressing buttons, the opposite of deciding to kill all those innocents. The only way I see this panning out is thus: A has the button as has B. If A presses it, then B knows about it well before it's too late to respond. So, A is exterminated by B seconds after A has exterminated B. In the case that B had not responded, the casualties would not be limited to B, but that massive amount of radiation required to eliminate B would hit the territory of A as well, along with many of the alligned and non-alligned countries too.. Don't forget that that single reactor meltdown in Russia affected Scotland as well.

As for the nuclear powers dependent on religious maniacs, well, they are something else and certainly do not preclude our own (UK) need to be vigilant. As for the lower levels of such mentalities, we are already powerless to defend ourselves - how do you combat suicide jockeys?

Now, take a look at the world map and, for this purpose, exclude the entire Americas. What do you see? You see Russia pretty much landlocked but for its often frozen northern edges and hinterland. Look to the east and you see China, to the south yet more of China, the middle-east, Balkans and parts of an Islam which when not hostile to Russia as in Afghanistan and even Russia's own Islamic-strong territories, shares some mutually useful interests beyond its own borders. What does Russia need most? It needs warm seas giving access to the wider world at any time. As you already know, that's the main reason it is concerned with Syria: such, at the moment tiny, access it already has right there. Do you imagine it will aid the vanishing of the current dictator in charge of that area it uses? Don't you think that a successful propping up of that dictator will be rewarded with even more facilities? After all, if Russia is all that's keeping him alive, of course he'll strengthen Russia as much as he can.

Look westwardly and you see what was its early satellite countries, which it is already eyeing with appetite once again. What incentive for that eye to stop its roaming right there? There's the rest of the European continent just beyond, largely filled wih a population neither concerned about or even much aware of the larger game being played and hidden in broad daylight.

The only viable force standing in the way of such expansion to the west is NATO. Remove the British content, which is exactly what the UK's fellow-traveller reds desire, and France will crumble again too, followed by the rest of the herd.

Now, I asked you to exclude the entire Americas for a moment. Okay; imagine a scenario where there is neither a UK nor a French button to push (a French one would vanish PDQ too, I expect) and Russia decides to move itself westwards. What prevents it? You imagine that the White House will start pressing buttons for 'over there' and risk instant retaliation when it knows perfectly well that Russia wouldn't take it on? We'd be on our own, sans any defence worth squat. Our own red govermnet would have fixed that!

But for the fact of that pesky button, the world would be a very different shade of pink right now, starting with Cuba and the rest of the Caribbean and far down into latin America too.

No wonder some factions see great benefit accrue in reducing the number of western fingers capable of touching buttons.

Rob C

« Last Edit: October 01, 2015, 03:41:40 pm by Rob C »
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Telecaster

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Re: On democracy
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2015, 03:51:32 pm »

Do you think that, in a democracy, the majority should decide where the country should be headed on key topics?

Or is it better to leave that to a minority of smarter than average people who know what's good for the majority?

Genuine question.

Hmmm, I just started another topic (The Dictatorship of the Minority) with an excerpt from an upcoming book that, in part, attempts to address these questions. Nassim Taleb's hypothesis in the excerpt is that social structures, including governments, are always highly influenced and even dictated by the needs & desires of small but committed & intransigent minority groups. This can be for good or for ill.

My own contention is that people nominally in favor of democratic rule—which is to say most people living in democratic countries—will easily become supporters of autocracy if the autocrats promise to impose standards & behaviors they (the nominal democrats) particularly value, even if those standards & behaviors run counter to majority wishes.

-Dave-
« Last Edit: October 01, 2015, 07:00:39 pm by Telecaster »
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PeterAit

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Re: On democracy
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2015, 04:04:11 pm »

My friends,

Just a quick and basic question.

Do you think that, in a democracy, the majority should decide where the country should be headed on key topics?

Or is it better to leave that to a minority of smarter than average people who know what's good for the majority?


Depends on what you mean by "smart." Look at the many dismal messes the neocons have gotten the US into, Iraq being only the most obvious example. All these neocons were folks with impressive degrees and high IQs, and what good did it do them (or the country)?

As for democracy, look at the gaggle of tea party nincompoops in the U.S. congress who are messing up so many things - elected, every one of them.

It's easy to get discouraged.
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AreBee

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Re: On democracy
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2015, 04:57:39 pm »

Rob,

Quote
...The only viable force standing in the way of such expansion to the west is NATO. Remove the British content, which is exactly what the UK's fellow-traveller reds desire, and France will crumble again too, followed by the rest of the herd...

Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty makes provision for the protection under the NATO nuclear umbrella of nuclear-free member states.
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AlterEgo

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Re: On democracy
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2015, 05:09:26 pm »

Rob,

Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty makes provision for the protection under the NATO nuclear umbrella of nuclear-free member states.

I do not read any obligation there... if a member will not deem it necessary then it will not act... = "as it deems necessary"... so the decision what a member deems necessary is with that member, its sole discretion...
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AreBee

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Re: On democracy
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2015, 05:49:13 pm »

AlterEgo,

Quote
I do not read any obligation there...so the decision what a member deems necessary is with that member...

Individually, yes, but collectively there is an obligation to "...restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area." Member states can't all do nothing.

The greater the degree of attack, the greater the likelihood, and severity, of the response.
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stamper

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Re: On democracy
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2015, 03:34:51 am »

There is one important fact missing in the above posts. The nuclear deterrent in the UK - Trident and Polaris before it - isn't independent. They are are wholly owned by the US which means that the UK is only a launching platform for the US. No UK prime minister will ever get to press that button. The US decides if it gets used and NOT the UK. The UK pays massively for that privilege. Believe me I know what I am talking about. :(
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