Capture One adjustments

[Juan Pablo]

Hi
I´d recently moved from LR to C18 and i am quite satisfied with it.
I work with the Catalog method, having folders for recurrent clients. I have deleted an unused folder and then reimported it few days later (just to keep clean my C1 catalog).
Adjustments have gone, so i have to work from zero again those files.
In LR i used to have the xmp files so i could reload the changes. Is there any similar method here? Maybe I am missing something in the preferences.

I use Capture One Pro 8.3.3

Thank you

[Doug Peterson]

Use a session rather than a catalog. If you're looking for portability and modularity rather than a monolithic catalog then sessions are better.

If you're new to C1 I strongly suggest the youtube tutorials and webinars. They are quite decent and free.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0IcSplkBKY&list=PLDMRz3ssFQH6eHHX5Pw2Lf0DO8UB5siyH
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_snlVTLKR0I&list=PLDMRz3ssFQH5bVekS7WX6rW9pZu_X_vLJ

After that if you're still looking for more advanced instruction I'd selfishly suggest considering taking a Capture One Training Class such as ours: https://digitaltransitions.com/event/training-events Our next series is next week.

[Juan Pablo]

Thanks for your advice. I´m migrating to sessions now and thing are working better.
Tutorials and webinars are really helpful in this adaptation process. I will check on DT classes of course.

[Hoggy]

I've also been checking COP-8, coming from LR.  For my own uses, I prefer the catalog method, to be able to search through all the images that I have.  Although I have to admit, I do like knowing I have the possible option of sessions.

I'm finding this to be one of the major stumbling blocks for me..  I would much prefer to keep the adjustments stored both in the COP catalog, as well as the XMP fields in a DNG - preferably in a way that could work alongside of LR-adjustments also being stored in the DNG.  ....  And yes, I do intend to stay with DNG - not only because of my native-DNG Pentax cameras, but also because of image data verification - and therefore I convert my 'pocket' Canons' CR2's.   It's a great comfort having a belt-and-suspenders style backup, including develop snapshots.

Which brings up..  I'm still trying to figure things out via all those tutorials, but are there actual snapshots that would be stored - even if in a sidecar xmp?  Would these 'variants' be stored in an xmp sidecar at all?

[Paul Steunebrink]

...
Which brings up..  I'm still trying to figure things out via all those tutorials, but are there actual snapshots that would be stored - even if in a sidecar xmp?  Would these 'variants' be stored in an xmp sidecar at all?

All adjustments you made with CO8 when working with a catalog are stored in the catalog database. That includes variants.

I would like to suggest to consider your DNG workflow. Native DNG is fine, when working with CO8, as is any native raw format like CR2. Converted DNG will limit your functionality in CO8 and you could experience some loss of image quality.

[Denis de Gannes]

Quote "Converted DNG will limit your functionality in CO8 and you could experience some loss of image quality."
Could you expand a bit on this;
a. Converted DNG? Converted by Adobe DNG Converter ? Lightroom/ ACR?
b. Some loss of image quality? Why?

[Hoggy]

Quote "Converted DNG will limit your functionality in CO8 and you could experience some loss of image quality."
Could you expand a bit on this;
a. Converted DNG? Converted by Adobe DNG Converter ? Lightroom/ ACR?
b. Some loss of image quality? Why?

Bump..  I'm also heavily interested in knowing the answers to these questions..  Even for my Pentax's native DNG's, I 'convert' them for better compression, DNG-tiling benefits, and most importantly to strip them of their useless (to me) full-size JPG previews.
I don't understand why there should be a quality loss - all the camera info is still stored right there in the xmp.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Quote "Converted DNG will limit your functionality in CO8 and you could experience some loss of image quality."
Could you expand a bit on this;
a. Converted DNG? Converted by Adobe DNG Converter ? Lightroom/ ACR?

Converted from native camera Raw (e.g. CR2 or NEF) to DNG.

b. Some loss of image quality? Why?

The conversion to DNG converts/adds some (Adobe specific) info for the LR/ACR color engine. Capture One uses a different color engine, and therefore has difficulty in using that other color model and converting it back to the original color model. Phase One is working on improving that process, but it takes time (because supporting two quite different color models requires resources which they'd rather use for supporting and improving conversions of native Raws).

Cheers,
Bart

[Denis de Gannes]

Converted from native camera Raw (e.g. CR2 or NEF) to DNG.

The conversion to DNG converts/adds some (Adobe specific) info for the LR/ACR color engine. Capture One uses a different color engine, and therefore has difficulty in using that other color model and converting it back to the original color model. Phase One is working on improving that process, but it takes time (because supporting two quite different color models requires resources which they'd rather use for supporting and improving conversions of native Raws).

Cheers,
Bart

Then you are saying that when C1 processes a dng file converted by an Adobe product they are using the Adobe Profile? Why not the Capture One profile (for the particular camera) and use the raw data that is within the dog file?
Why would I use Capture One if an Adobe recipe is going to be used? Just saying!
 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Then you are saying that when C1 processes a dng file converted by an Adobe product they are using the Adobe Profile? Why not the Capture One profile (for the particular camera) and use the raw data that is within the dog file?
Why would I use Capture One if an Adobe recipe is going to be used? Just saying!

Hi Denis,

The profile type is connected to the color model/engine used. DCP profiles are output referred profiles, while ICC capture device profiles are in principle scene oriented (and can be simply converted towards output ICC profiles in a standardized manner because ICC is an industry standard).

Apparently Phase One have chosen to follow the DNG/DCP profiles for specific (native DNG) Raws, and convert that back to the input scene referred model they use. That's a time consuming thing because they have to tweak that reverse engineering for each specific camera, while they already have full support for the camera native Raw format for all other cameras that do not produce native DNGs.

So for the majority of cameras, they would have to do the work twice, once for their own (for them superior) color model, and additionally for DNG/DCP profiles using another color model for those who for some reason like to switch to Adobe products but who already can use the native non-DNG Raws. The question for them, give limited budgets, is then why make life easier for Adobe with the risk of customers switching (thus a wasted investment) if there is already full native Raw support?

But, Phase One apparently do intend to improve color support for DNG, even if it is not their highest priority.

In my (simplistic) view, Phase One should treat DNGs as two different input formats. One would be for native DNG raws where no other native camera Raw exists, which need to be reverse engineered towards an ICC colormodel. And another for 'converted-to' DNGs where they should almost completely ignore the DNG tags, and only work from the Raw sensor data (before demosaicing) that's stored in the DNG.

The tricky part still remains that only Adobe controls the DNG specification, so Phase One needs to constantly monitor changes in the specification, or errors in the conversion, to see if original Raw data is altered in the process of converting to DNG. There are also variants of DNG (which is a flexible TIFF variant) where the Raw sensor data is not Raw anymore, because it was already converted in RGB. So they still need to interpret the DNG to make sure they are dealing with truly Camera Raw data.

Fact remains, DNG is only beneficial for an Adobe centric workflow, and totally unnecessary (in fact only causes issues) for cameras that produce native Raw data files.

Those who have followed / are following the discussion about DCamProf profiling software here on LuLa will start to grasp how difficult it is to make a robust profile for a specific color model (let alone two conflicting ones), and how much of a 'look' specific profiles can force upon a casual user of a specific camera/brand. That also explains why Camera makers are not too eager to put their eggs into one (Adobe) basket, and why their own Raw converters occasionally produce a color quality that's preferred by many.

Cheers,
Bart

[Denis de Gannes]

Thanks for the explanation. I have followed DNG development since late 2004 and tried adopting it on two occasions but eventually returned to working with raw files from my cameras. It only took a couple of weeks to convince me that it did not provide benefits to my workflow. I have used Lightroom from its inception and prefer to work with the info in the catalog file and do not use xmp sidecars or DNG file format. I also began using Capture One Pro a few months ago when they introduced a catalog option also.

[Hoggy]

The profile type is connected to the color model/engine used. DCP profiles are output referred profiles, while ICC capture device profiles are in principle scene oriented (and can be simply converted towards output ICC profiles in a standardized manner because ICC is an industry standard).

Apparently Phase One have chosen to follow the DNG/DCP profiles for specific (native DNG) Raws, and convert that back to the input scene referred model they use. That's a time consuming thing because they have to tweak that reverse engineering for each specific camera, while they already have full support for the camera native Raw format for all other cameras that do not produce native DNGs.

So for the majority of cameras, they would have to do the work twice, once for their own (for them superior) color model, and additionally for DNG/DCP profiles using another color model for those who for some reason like to switch to Adobe products but who already can use the native non-DNG Raws. The question for them, give limited budgets, is then why make life easier for Adobe with the risk of customers switching (thus a wasted investment) if there is already full native Raw support?

But, Phase One apparently do intend to improve color support for DNG, even if it is not their highest priority.

In my (simplistic) view, Phase One should treat DNGs as two different input formats. One would be for native DNG raws where no other native camera Raw exists, which need to be reverse engineered towards an ICC colormodel. And another for 'converted-to' DNGs where they should almost completely ignore the DNG tags, and only work from the Raw sensor data (before demosaicing) that's stored in the DNG.

The tricky part still remains that only Adobe controls the DNG specification, so Phase One needs to constantly monitor changes in the specification, or errors in the conversion, to see if original Raw data is altered in the process of converting to DNG. There are also variants of DNG (which is a flexible TIFF variant) where the Raw sensor data is not Raw anymore, because it was already converted in RGB. So they still need to interpret the DNG to make sure they are dealing with truly Camera Raw data.

Fact remains, DNG is only beneficial for an Adobe centric workflow, and totally unnecessary (in fact only causes issues) for cameras that produce native Raw data files.

Those who have followed / are following the discussion about DCamProf profiling software here on LuLa will start to grasp how difficult it is to make a robust profile for a specific color model (let alone two conflicting ones), and how much of a 'look' specific profiles can force upon a casual user of a specific camera/brand. That also explains why Camera makers are not too eager to put their eggs into one (Adobe) basket, and why their own Raw converters occasionally produce a color quality that's preferred by many.

Forgive me, I'm having trouble digesting all this for the time being.  I have a disability that affects cognition&memory.  I may eventually get there, but it may take a bit.

Are you basically referring to the area in C1 under Base Characteristics/ICC Profile?  I recently went through the imported catalog, filtering by camera model - and had to switch them all from 'DNG default..' to the camera specific ICC profile (i.e. 'G7 X Generic'), presumably built by Phase One.

If so, why doesn't C1 just read the camera model and default to that camera model's ICC profile?  And more to this usage point, how do I get C1 to do so for any imported [DNG] files in the future?

As I say, the major benefits to DNG conversion for me are the image data hash and ridding them of their full-size jpg previews.  Disk space may be cheaper than it use to be, but for someone with no income at the moment... 

Thanks.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Forgive me, I'm having trouble digesting all this for the time being.  I have a disability that affects cognition&memory.  I may eventually get there, but it may take a bit.

Are you basically referring to the area in C1 under Base Characteristics/ICC Profile?  I recently went through the imported catalog, filtering by camera model - and had to switch them all from 'DNG default..' to the camera specific ICC profile (i.e. 'G7 X Generic'), presumably built by Phase One.

Hi,

I don't use DNGs, but I assume that you imported 'converted' DNGs. These were then already modified by the DNG converter to an Adobe flavor of file, and I assume with a DCP profile assumption. That's why Capture One chose DNG default, as shown under Base Characteristics.

Anything could happen if you then change the profile selection in C1 to a profile that was not matched to the input file, I can't predict how that works out.

If so, why doesn't C1 just read the camera model and default to that camera model's ICC profile?  And more to this usage point, how do I get C1 to do so for any imported [DNG] files in the future?

C1 just reads the appropriate profile for the filetype, either DNG for DNG Raws, or camera specific for original Camera Raws.
You can automate conversions, by creating a Style and then apply that Style to (multiple) files, e.g. upon import.

As I say, the major benefits to DNG conversion for me are the image data hash and ridding them of their full-size jpg previews.  Disk space may be cheaper than it use to be, but for someone with no income at the moment... 

The data integrity check is an interesting feature, but I presume it only works inside Adobe apps (because it needs software to do the same hash recalculation, and then do a comparison). While you may shave a few bytes of the file size by embedding smaller preview sizes, the creation of another (DNG) file also costs storage space. I'm not so sure if the space savings between a DNG and the original camera Raw is that significant, but it does create a source of conversion errors and misunderstandings.

For integrity, you can either save (multiple) Raws in a compressed ZIP file (the ZIP has its own integrity check), or use a separate file verification program (e.g. FileVerifier++ for Windows) that generates a hash for each file, for future reference and a check for 'bit-rot'.

Cheers,
Bart

[Paul Steunebrink]

Well, it seems I started something with my comments on DNG. Fortunately, user BartvanderWolf has the technical insight. Unfortunately, the more you tell, the more questions asked.

My comments which basically said not to use converted DNG files (unless necessary) in Capture One simply comes from the experience of many, many users. Capture One is working at its optimum when using the original raw file.

Improving on this, as BartvanderWolf hinted at, might help users which come from Lr/ACR workflow and have been converting the raws to DNG.

[Hoggy]

Yeah..  It seems Phase One is going in kicking and screaming in regards to the DNG era. 

A quick google showed that the free Adobe DNG converter can do a verification also, and it seems someone has written a plugin that could do it in earlier LR versions.

The problem with zipping is that there's no really easy way of verifying the integrity of the image data until it may be too late.  The fileverifier route would only check the full DNG, not just the image data - and therefore poses a problem when the metadata is changed.

As far as space savings, it may be as little as 2 to 3 megabytes average, like for my older Canon S100, to as much as 5 to 6 MB average for my Pentax K-3.  It probably depends on what the average JPG size that each camera produces, as to how much...  As there always seems to be full-size JPG previews embedded in the native raws - albeit with likely more compression.  However that might change for the 40mp and up type cameras - don't know.  I always store my DNGs with no preview at all, save for the thumbnail sizes that are in them.  And I don't keep the native raws cause I just don't really have it in me to learn each different manufacturer's raw software - I'd rather concentrate on the software that can do many.  And there's also space savings of generally 1-3 megabytes on top of that, for simply converting native raw to DNG (as when keeping full-size jpg previews in) - which even occurs for my Pentax cameras' native DNG.  So the space savings really adds up quickly - and can be quite significant in the long run..  Especially for people that can't easily afford to buy bigger drives all the time.
(It also allows me to store quite a bit on backup BD-RE-50's for running backups.   )

So I'm a heavy DNG fanboy at this point..    Now to reread this thread so I can digest some more.

It really would be nice if C1 could store it's adjustments into XMP though (including variants as 'snapshots'), either in a sidecar or right into the DNG-XMP itself.  As I am missing having that belt-and-suspenders type of reassurance/backup.  OTOH, it's kinda freeing, with C1 also not having a history panel like LR.  I just wish there was a C1-Relaunch script like there is for LR, so I could make very very frequent catalog backups.

[Hoggy]

One main thing I still don't understand though, as I'm obviously still very new to C1.  (Not because of the recent Adobe fiasco though, as I wasn't affected at all by it - and in fact, the better raw-DNG HDR merging of LR 6.2(.1) was a complete boon to me.)

(For a later import:  ...)
I've found that the Base Characteristics/ICC Profile has stuck to the camera-specific generic Phase1 profile for new imports from my Pentax cameras now.  And these were originally imported into LR long ago, all using the 'Convert to DNG' option.  So therefore none of them are the direct native-DNGs that they produce, but they are the 'double-converted' versions for the reasons mentioned previously - further compression, tiling, and ridden of any jpg previews.

So I don't know what I did to get them to stick that way, but I'd like to do that for my Canon S100 & G7 X cameras as well.

Both the first batch, and later the second batch (into a different catalog) have been imported using the DNG files directly..  As the LR catalog import facility failed miserably for both of these catalogs.

I'm pretty sure I haven't created a Style to apply as default, as I've yet to find out more about that.  So what else could I have done to get the Phase One ICC profiles to 'stick' all of a sudden for my Pentax cameras?

That's what I'd like to do, as the whole point behind using C1 for me is for different renditions compared to LR.

(BTW - terribly sorry if I'm hijacking this thread, but the OP's issue seems like it was solved by using sessions.  Although I still would like to find out if any saving to xmp exists.)