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Author Topic: What about printer managing color? Ctein says "yes."  (Read 19281 times)

TylerB

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Re: What about printer managing color? Ctein says "yes."
« Reply #60 on: October 01, 2015, 02:37:32 pm »

Do not forget to calibrate the monitor to paper white, for a particular paper. I try to use a calibration, profile setup for each paper I soft proof. However, laziness gets in the way.  LOL

Bob

this is an issue that deserves some clarification, and it's too bad we're in a thread with a somewhat unrelated title.. monitor profiling using white point to match paper white was something many of us did back before there were soft proofing tools in Photoshop. But now we have simulate paper color option in soft proof, utilizing known and measured criteria between color space, monitor profile, and paper profile. Given that, what are the actual pros and cons of making individual monitor profiles for different papers, trying to match the white point to each paper white, over soft proof options?
I've seen this recommended many times and opinions on why would be interesting..
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bjanes

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Re: What about printer managing color? Ctein says "yes."
« Reply #61 on: October 02, 2015, 09:47:04 am »

For the prints he tested, he's right (it's his prints, I've never seen them in person). Otherwise, for those that want to soft proof (something he says doesn't work for him so take that as a data point!), those that want to control OOG gamut mapping via soft proof and selection of the Rendering Intent, post edit based on that soft proof, use ACE or BPC, he's in need of a rail alignment IMHO.  :o

I find this whole thread to be highly confusing. Andrew has a lengthy and convincing (to me) movie demonstrating why one should use a wide gamut space and his findings are backed up by Jeff Schewe and other experts, and I have followed their advice with excellent results. Now Ctein says one should print using Printer Manages Colors, which clips the gamut to Adobe RGB or sRGB. The Adobe RGB option is said not to be available with Windows, but with Windows 10 Pro, the Adobe RGB options seems to be available (see screen capture below).

If one is working with Adobe Camera Raw and intends to use the Printer Manages Color option, it would make sense to render into Adobe RGB rather than ProPhotoRGB so that one could control saturation so as to avoid clipping of colors that are out of the Adobe RGB gamut. If one is using Printer Manages Colors, the colors would be clipped to Adobe RGB or sRGB using relative colorimetric with no control over the process. Colors that are outside of AdobeRGB or sRGB but within the gamut of a wide gamut inkjet printer would be lost. In my experience, it is often beneficial to permit some clipping of saturated colors so long as the resulting colors are not blocked up in the print. Soft proofing can be helpful here.

Personally, I don't have the time or expertise to conduct extensive tests of both methods, and will continue to render into ProPhotoRGB and print with Photoshop managing the colors, relying on the advice of more experienced users such as Andrew and Jeff Schewe.

Bill
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: What about printer managing color? Ctein says "yes."
« Reply #62 on: October 05, 2015, 06:21:00 am »


I don't know about windows, but on the Mac, when you select "printer manages color"  you also have to go to the "color matching" menu in the driver interface. The default is "Colorsync" which then calls the corresponding Epson supplied ICC profile based on what you also chose as your media setting. However, Ctein is choosing the other option. Under the color matching menu, he is selecting "Epson color matching", often simply called "vendor matching" if one is using a printer other than an Epson.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

Mark, thank you for all the messages on the subject.

There's no intention to go the printer color management route here with my HP Z3x00 printers. The integrated calibration and profiling available on the printers + the default profile creators + the optional profile creators were satisfying so far for photography and already give a choice in profile tastes that can even be widened to more profile creators as the measuring data can also be exported as CGAT. I have another question on that but reserve it for the other thread.

I am curious though on the choices within printer driver color management on OS-X and Windows. I understand that in OS-X and selecting Colorsync the printer driver will use the OEM ICC profile that corresponds with the chosen media preset, rendering choice is absent. The same ICC profile would be used in application color management for that paper if no custom profile exists. In the other choice it will use LUTs in the driver itself that correspond with the chosen media preset and no use of the Colorsync color engine then. Ctein used that last one.

In my HP Z Windows driver PCL3 choices I see a selection for Application Managed Colors and Printer Managed Colors, the last gives a choice for the Source Profile; sRGB or AdobeRGB, say the color space assigned to the image you want to load. There is no choice for the Windows color engine ICM-WCS or a vendor matching system there. I had no clue what it uses then. It is similar for the Postscript PS3 driver but the Source Profile choices goes up to 4 for RGB and includes way more CMYK color spaces. Both can be set in view of PS PDF documents with both RGB and CMYK aboard. I think the choices of source color spaces are defined by the printer language, PCL or PS, and the limitation in source profiles supported is set there. I can not imagine that they all are converted to sRGB before going into driver color management as Ctein suggests for Windows' printer color management. It is more likely the printer language that defines the transfer states.

In the Printing Preferences>Advanced Document Settings tab/menu of both the PCL3 and PS3 driver there are choices for Graphic>Image Color Management>ICM method: ICM disabled, ICM Handled by Host system (ED: Windows I guess), ICM Handled by Printer, and PS3 only; ICM Handled by Printer using printer calibration. There is also an ICM Intent range of choices; graphics, pictures, proof, match, for all the 4 ICM management choices. The default setting in the driver is ICM disabled. My guess is that this range of choices matches the two choices Ctein was confronted with when he went  for Printer manages color; Colorsync or Epson Color matching. HP offers more choices though, at least in my Windows system. The ICM choices represented in this menu of the driver only come in action if the user selects Printer managed color on the other menu page, I can not interpret it otherwise. Not that HP explains that carefully and worse, the driver's defaults are Printer Manages Color + ICM disabled, which should result in no CM at all. In the beginning I had the impression that it only applied to documents like PDFs etc but meanwhile I learned it works for Printer manages color on all what is thrown at it.

It would be nice to get a better understanding of what happens under the hood with those choices and where the differences are between OEM drivers + their OS-X and Windows versions. Again, not to use that CM route for Tiffs etc but for an understanding of the method. For PDFs etc with known RGB + CMYK color spaces assigned the PS3 driver offers at least a kind of RIP CM route this way and I know it is used by Z users for that task.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 08:12:40 am by Ernst Dinkla »
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graeme

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Re: What about printer managing color? Ctein says "yes."
« Reply #63 on: October 05, 2015, 06:58:26 am »

Just to toss in an observation - I do not have an expensive monitor and never have had one but soft-proofing works great for me.

Sharon

+1 ( Well it's not perfect but is v useful ).
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