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Author Topic: On the hobby of reproducing reality.  (Read 7939 times)

landscapephoto

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On the hobby of reproducing reality.
« on: September 27, 2015, 08:40:13 am »

I used to be a sound engineer when not taking photographs. I recorded concerts, mainly classical music. For classical music, one of the objectives for the sound engineer is to sound as close as possible to the live performance.

Surprisingly few sound engineers can actually do that. Most recordings sound nothing like an actual concert. This is a continuous source of frustration for the performers, who actually know how the instruments sound like because they actually go to concerts. “Audiophiles”, on the other hand, rarely listen to music outside of their sound system, so they have no external reference points.

I’ll give an example. We recorded a piano concert. The piano is an instrument that is notoriously difficult to record and the musicians told us that it was the first time that a recording sounded like a real piano. On “audiophile” forums, our recording was criticised as “lacking dynamic” and “being almost monophonic”. I pointed out that there was only ONE piano, it was right in front of the audience and, in a concert, the sound indeed came from a single point: the piano. There. Right in front of you. Of course it sounds “almost monophonic”, because there is only ONE piano. On other recordings, less “monophonic” ones, the listener had the effect that bass notes and treble notes would be on opposite sides, but this is not what happens when one listens to a real piano unless one puts its head right into the instrument.

The “audiophiles” would not have it. They did not want a recording which sounded “almost monophonic” and mocked us.

I could record differently. It is not particularly difficult and, for example in the case of pop music, the sound engineer needs to create a particular rendering for the sound of the instruments. There is a whole industry of filters for that. On forums catering to people recording music, I would get praise if my recordings sound like the latest fashionable filter, but what satisfaction is there in applying the design of others? In these forums, there are groups of people defending particular trends in processing, it sometimes even seem that some accounts are shills from a particular company. What I hoped in joining a forum was to meet like-minded people and discuss how to record audio. I did not get that, the forums appear to be advertisement for particular processing, religious wars and bragging about expensive microphones.

Then, there are the forums catering to amateurs of music. I don’t have a place there, they are only interested by the performances. The heroes there are the musicians, but I don’t compose music or play an instrument, I just record. The amateurs of music have no interest on how the music is recorded, if the performance was recorded on an iPhone they would be almost as pleased, as long as the performance is interesting.

What if I recorded something else than music? This also exists: there are people who put in microphone in a crowd, record the sound for half an hour and have a CD pressed. Unfortunately for me, this works like the art market and I don’t have the contacts to do that. Besides, the buyers have no real interest in the quality of the recording (some of them sound quite bad) but only in the fame of the artist who did the recording.

So I left this hobby. It was just incredibly frustrating not to find anyone like minded, to have nobody to actually share on the subject of recording. I could have made it a profession and record concerts for a fee, but the pay was far too low to be worth it. And just doing that on week-end was too frustrating when I had nobody to discuss what I was doing and, when a CD was produced, everybody congratulated the musicians and forgot about my work.
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Rob C

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Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2015, 09:19:38 am »

Well, it's no different in photography. Take the two links you posted to that Oriental gentleman with his 8"x10": OOf images writ large. Why bother with large format? Shoot the damned things on 120 roll, either unfocussed in camera or, better yet, sharply focussed in camera but printed OOF in the darkroom. That way, he could even print to suit different clients. Hell, he could even try printing through a Softar held below the enlarger lens. Unexpected look you can get from that too, spreading not what you thought you were going to spread.

I watched in disbelief as his architect friend spoke about the works... may be that something got lost in translation.

The art market is a bad joke. There are very competent artists making great stuff and they wil never get a chance; they neither have the connections nor, for that matter, will they experience the fortunate coup de foudre that launches them into the limelight.

It's a crapshoot as big as everything else, especially music, where it, too, revolves around the hype that some artists can attract. Was a time female singers were often plain Janes: today, is there a single one who isn't really or artificially the mate of all desires?

I guess your chosen interest in sound - as explained in your post - will perhaps mirror the film/digital arguments too.

Sometimes I envy those with no aesthetic pretensions whatsoever. For them, a urinal is ever a urinal, and an empty seascape an empty seascape. Without imaginary complications. I guess if we accept and enjoy our own pretensions, then we have but ourselves to blame or to love.

I was in Hamilton's Gallery in London, many years ago, looking at a show by Robert Mapplethorpe's photographer brother. As I stood looking, a guy behind me was talking to a woman and 'explaining' how wonderful the photographer to have captured the 'texture' of the woodchip paper behind the human subject. One sidelight, and how to avoid that texture? I actually turned around to look at the guy. He wore a tweed jacket and corduroy trousers. I thought: Rob, keep your trap shut, rest your effin' case and get the hell out of here. I did both. Then I read the late Jeanloup Sieff's views on 'curators' and various art-world sharks and shysters and feel comforted. And Sieff had more photo shows than I have hairs on my head! More scathing thoughts about such people I have never read anywhere else! Worth the price of the book for that alone.

Rob C
« Last Edit: September 27, 2015, 09:30:20 am by Rob C »
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Justinr

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Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2015, 09:36:54 am »

I did not get that, the forums appear to be advertisement for particular processing, religious wars and bragging about expensive microphones.



Indeed, and you'll see the same here, just go questioning AE for example and you'll soon be told what a crap photographer you are!
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amolitor

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Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2015, 09:42:00 am »

 I'm not a sound guy. At all. I know some guys, though, and I've fooled around with some gear.

It strikes me that sound recording has some of the same features as photography, for sure.

You can go for realistic, which will fail, but you can try to get closer in this way out that. And that can be a fun albeit expensive game.

Or you can go for conceptual. Not necessarily outré but non realistic. What is your idea of this piece of music? What's your point of view? And how can the recording capture that?

A stupid and simple idea: in Peter and the Wolf, each character's theme should move across the stage in a manner that suits the character and the scene.

How do ducks, cats, and wolves move? And how can you express that with your tools?
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landscapephoto

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Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2015, 11:31:30 am »

Well, it's no different in photography. Take the two links you posted to that Oriental gentleman with his 8"x10": OOf images writ large. Why bother with large format? Shoot the damned things on 120 roll, either unfocussed in camera or, better yet, sharply focussed in camera but printed OOF in the darkroom. That way, he could even print to suit different clients. Hell, he could even try printing through a Softar held below the enlarger lens. Unexpected look you can get from that too, spreading not what you thought you were going to spread.

I watched in disbelief as his architect friend spoke about the works... may be that something got lost in translation.

I suspect that you are talking about Hiroshi Sugimoto.

The real story is the following. Hiroshi Sugimoto got famous for this kind of pictures:


Here on the web, the picture may not be that impressive but the original is a massive print. Really big. Size matters. And Hiroshi Sugimoto got famous in Japan first. As you undoubtedly know, Japan is an Island, so the sea is never really far. And if you grow on an island, or maybe near the sea, you have a special feeling about the sea: it is always there. It is the final frontier, it borders your world. Right after this last mountain, you will always find it and you cannot go any further.

I grew by the sea. When I saw the first picture of the sea by Hiroshi Sugimoto's, I was amazed. I realised this was exactly the feeling I had as a child and never managed to put words to it. But suddenly it was there in front of me and I remember when I was a child and the sea was always behind the last mountain.

So Hiroshi Sugimoto got famous for a good reason.

But then, indeed, from that point onwards he looked for his next idea. And I don't think he ever found it, but it did not stopped the critics praising him of course. Because at that point he was already famous and the prints sold for lots of money.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2015, 11:48:09 am »

Hi,

There are some similarities, but also many differences between sound recording and photography. But both can be done with or without technical skills, the results will be different and more, or less, usable for certain usage.

With sound, assuming we're talking about a performance and not a sound sample, there is a composition and an interpretation and execution by a/several performer(s). There is already a lot of creative work done before one gets to even listen to it.

Then the recording part is also something that can make a huge difference in the ability to reproduce the performance. Location acoustics, placement of instruments, placement of microphones, and specifics of the recording process (types of microphones and their frequency response, dynamic range), amplification, and last but not least the mixing of it all.

Photography has some similarities with regards to composition/perspective/lighting, and a reproduction records the artistic achievement of someone else. It then comes down to being able to record the subject/object in such a way that we can reproduce it faithfully (which is close to impossible even for a reproduction), or use it as a basis for our creative intent and vision.

Cheers,
Bart
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== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

landscapephoto

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Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2015, 11:55:05 am »

So everybody recognised the parallel with photography. It is just that Rob picked the part about the art market, Justin about forums, Andrew is trying to find a solution for me and Bart to prove that it is not quite the same.

Of course there is a parallel with photography.

We have the crowd with resolution charts, dynamic range and an X-rite target in the corner of each picture. We also have the instagram crowd and people producing landscapes which are the equivalent of Thomas Kinkade on acid. And, just as the people listening to CDs are interested in the music, the people watching the picture of the pretty girl, news event or landscape are only interested about who is that girl, what happened at the event and where is the landscape. Not in how you took it.

Now my next question is the following. I don't want to end up in an audiophile forum discussing the properties of golden cables. What hobbies do you suggest I take to replace sound recording?
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amolitor

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Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2015, 12:08:27 pm »

Book binding! Somewhere someone is probably arguing about which brand of linen thread is best for restoring rice paper books, but I haven't found him yet.
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landscapephoto

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Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2015, 12:15:18 pm »

Book biding. Brilliant idea, Andrew. We all know that book users do not care about what is written in them but only about how the book is assembled.

You have a weird sense of humour.
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Jimbo57

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Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2015, 12:16:35 pm »

I pointed out that there was only ONE piano, it was right in front of the audience and, in a concert, the sound indeed came from a single point: the piano. There. Right in front of you. Of course it sounds “almost monophonic”, because there is only ONE piano.

That short extract demonstrates that the poster knows very little about concert sound.

Of course a piano is a single source (albeit quite a large single source), but the whole point of listening to a piano concert is that the acoustics of a good concert hall treat different frequencies differently and different harmonics will appear to "surround" the listener in the audience (and do so differently for listeners in different areas of the concert hall).

So the critics were absolutely correct to complain that the recording "sounded almost monophonic" - if it was a decent multi-channel recording made of a piano in a well designed and constructed concert hall, it would most certainly NOT sound monophonic.

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Rob C

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Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2015, 12:22:24 pm »

Man, that's impossible: it's the equivalent of the questions over the page in this same book, where folks want somebody else to tell them which camera to buy to shoot b/white! Jeez.

But music's a far better medium than photography. Photography is so one-dimensional (in a spiritual way) whereas music takes hold of your mind, heart and soul. Look at this, for example: just a little figurine in motion, but with the music underlining it, she rocks! Sexier that any woman you're likely to see actually doing the moves. Funny thing: many of the people I used to see throwing it about on the dance floor were the very ones that should have sat it out and got quietly pissed instead.. Democracy, I guess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfCaG0yND-U

I live beside the sea too; I never felt it to be anything but fascinating, come storm or calm; the giant blowups don't, for me, convey a goddam thing beyond ultimate boredom. But somebody else already does them as badly - going to say worse, but that's exaggeration - only in colour. It's the equivalent of shooting an empty stage. The equivalent, too, of my landscapes, which always make me think I'm still looking for a backdrop for something else... I don't bother with trying them anymore.

;-)

Rob C



amolitor

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Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2015, 12:38:19 pm »

The audiophiles are coming. Run for it!
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Torbjörn Tapani

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Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2015, 12:45:02 pm »

Here is a hobby.  Painting. Tying to do a Vermeer with no formal training. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim%27s_Vermeer
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Justinr

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Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2015, 01:34:07 pm »

So everybody recognised the parallel with photography. It is just that Rob picked the part about the art market, Justin about forums, Andrew is trying to find a solution for me and Bart to prove that it is not quite the same.

Of course there is a parallel with photography.

We have the crowd with resolution charts, dynamic range and an X-rite target in the corner of each picture. We also have the instagram crowd and people producing landscapes which are the equivalent of Thomas Kinkade on acid. And, just as the people listening to CDs are interested in the music, the people watching the picture of the pretty girl, news event or landscape are only interested about who is that girl, what happened at the event and where is the landscape. Not in how you took it.

Now my next question is the following. I don't want to end up in an audiophile forum discussing the properties of golden cables. What hobbies do you suggest I take to replace sound recording?

At the end of the day we all want to be king of whichever island we alight upon. This is all well and good and we can march around our little terrain, marking it out with our unsavoury glands while admitting to the fact that there are other islands, the furthest away being the bigger and worthy of our praise while the closer are the smaller and deserving of our contempt. It's a grand life until another fellow is washed up on the beach who we fear may also wish to be the monarch of what we have come to think of our own, and that means war, for our superiority has to be asserted and proven, to not only ourselves but the all the kings on their islands to reaffirm our place in the great scheme of life.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2015, 02:48:35 pm by Justinr »
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landscapephoto

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Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2015, 03:56:22 pm »

At the end of the day we all want to be king of whichever island we alight upon. This is all well and good and we can march around our little terrain, marking it out with our unsavoury glands while admitting to the fact that there are other islands, the furthest away being the bigger and worthy of our praise while the closer are the smaller and deserving of our contempt. It's a grand life until another fellow is washed up on the beach who we fear may also wish to be the monarch of what we have come to think of our own, and that means war, for our superiority has to be asserted and proven, to not only ourselves but the all the kings on their islands to reaffirm our place in the great scheme of life.

Quite frankly, I don't want to be the king of anything. All I want is to have a nice hobby and some friends to discuss and exchange. It used to be like that. Taking audio as an example, I used to frequent forums where people discussed which devices worked and which did not (e.g. the perils of real-time on older computers...), which ones of the early cheap Chinese microphones worked correctly (a few were good copies and worked surprisingly well), etc... I learned a lot and tried to give as much back. Nobody was the king of anything.
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Justinr

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Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2015, 04:12:58 pm »

[quote au ;Dthor=landscapephoto link=topic=104193.msg855921#msg855921 date=1443383782]
Quite frankly, I don't want to be the king of anything. All I want is to have a nice hobby and some friends to discuss and exchange. It used to be like that. Taking audio as an example, I used to frequent forums where people discussed which devices worked and which did not (e.g. the perils of real-time on older computers...), which ones of the early cheap Chinese microphones worked correctly (a few were good copies and worked surprisingly well), etc... I learned a lot and tried to give as much back. Nobody was the king of anything.
[/quote]

Ah, but this is photography!  ;D
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Telecaster

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Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2015, 04:47:06 pm »

I've found the best way to keep enjoying my favorite pursuits is to talk/type about them as little as possible while doing them as much as possible. Here I comment on this or that aspect of photography while saying very little about, and showing virtually none of, what I actually do with cameras & lenses. Same goes elsewhere regarding playing & recording music (I do both). This is how I keep my enjoyment of taking photos alive. YMMV.

I will say this about music: if I were to listen to, say, The Beatles in order to savor the micing techniques of Geoff Emerick or the tape machine manipulation skills of Ken Townsend I'd be seriously missing the point. The techniques & skills are means to an end, but the end is the music itself. To put it another way: I record to document (sometimes "accurately," sometimes not so much) what I've played, not the other way 'round.

If my interest were primarily in mics rather than music I'd probably be one of those folks making ambient "found sound" recordings where the point is to showcase the mics and/or other aspects of recording technology & technique. Unless I didn't mind going mostly unrecognized for my skills I'd steer clear of music.

-Dave-
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David Sutton

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Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2015, 04:52:44 pm »

Landscapephoto, as a photographer and working musician I think you are barking up the wrong tree. If you want a friendly hobby you can share with others then looking to a forum is the wrong place. There is no substitute for mixing with real people face to face, learning to get on together and having fun with your shared interest. Camera clubs are good. Start one up. Open mike nights for musicians are fun. Use your skills and start one up. We all need to get out of our chairs more and make eye contact.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2015, 05:25:04 pm »

There is no substitute for mixing with real people face to face, learning to get on together and having fun with your shared interest. Camera clubs are good. Start one up. Open mike nights for musicians are fun. Use your skills and start one up. We all need to get out of our chairs more and make eye contact.

That depends on where you live.

It didn't go so well for me joining a camera club in an old German town where I live between Austin and San Antonio, Texas. Quite a few of the members are WWII vets over 60 years of age and I raised concerns over safety and developing a contingency plan in case of an emergency having a large group driving long distances out to remote areas to photograph when there was so many untapped opportunities in our beautiful town. I mean our town's one art gallery has only a few photos of the area.

I got a troubling, stern reply by one of the stone faced quiet tough guy types who said if I was someone who has a dark cloud over my head that it's best I don't go with them. He didn't offer any other constructive answer than that. And in fact the leader of the club, a rather unhealthy looking, obese elderly woman who had to walk with a cane, added that if she ever has a heart attach out in those remote areas she wants to be left to die with no attempts at resuscitation.

I left quite shortly after that looking for the nearest happy place.
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Justinr

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Re: On the hobby of reproducing reality.
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2015, 06:40:33 pm »

That depends on where you live.

It didn't go so well for me joining a camera club in an old German town where I live between Austin and San Antonio, Texas. Quite a few of the members are WWII vets over 60 years of age and I raised concerns over safety and developing a contingency plan in case of an emergency having a large group driving long distances out to remote areas to photograph when there was so many untapped opportunities in our beautiful town. I mean our town's one art gallery has only a few photos of the area.

I got a troubling, stern reply by one of the stone faced quiet tough guy types who said if I was someone who has a dark cloud over my head that it's best I don't go with them. He didn't offer any other constructive answer than that. And in fact the leader of the club, a rather unhealthy looking, obese elderly woman who had to walk with a cane, added that if she ever has a heart attach out in those remote areas she wants to be left to die with no attempts at resuscitation.

I left quite shortly after that looking for the nearest happy place.

You'd have to wonder whether photography was the true purpose of that collection of folk. Maybe they just wanted an excuse to be miserable in each others company.

As for the large lady then it reminds me of a farming family I once knew. The old man was a grand, cheerful and sprightly fellow in his eighties who was loved by all, friends family and neighbours alike. One day when I got to the farm he wasn't there with his usual words of greeting so I carried on as normal until the son came out to explain that he had died the week before, a heart attack while out picking out mushrooms in the fields that he had farmed since he was a boy. I went to express my genuine sorrow but was stopped short with a quiet smile. "Oh no" the fellow said, "it couldn't have ended for him in a better way, he never wanted to die in a hospital," and then, looking up at the valley sides in the warming autumn sunshine, with the last of the late dew drying on the grass, he swept his hand over the scene while adding, "and who can blame him, I hope I go that way when the time comes."  He made it sound like a reward for the life of hard work his father had put into the land.
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