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Author Topic: P-SERIES HDX VIOLET INK EXPANDS GAMUT BY UP TO 10%  (Read 5884 times)

Sarah Demers Spectraflow

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P-SERIES HDX VIOLET INK EXPANDS GAMUT BY UP TO 10%
« on: September 25, 2015, 03:28:06 pm »

One of the more interesting aspects of Epson’s newly announced P7000/P9000 series of large format printers is the new HDX ink set, which comes with the option of expanding the color gamut by replacing the Light Light Black (LLK) ink with a Violet (V) ink.
Depending upon the paper used, we saw up to a 10% gamut expansion from the previous 7900/9900 HDR ink set.  Epson says the new Violet allows for up to 99% Pantone Formula Guide coverage.  This is great news for designers and those in the fashion industry as dialing in the navies is often a challenge.
The screen shot shows exactly where the gamut is expanded vs the current HDR ink set. The substrate used was Premium Luster photo paper. The P9000 is in green while the 9900 is the multicolored one.

See the Gamut Map here:

http://blog.spectraflow.com/p-series-hdx-violet-ink-expands-gamut-by-up-to-10/
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: P-SERIES HDX VIOLET INK EXPANDS GAMUT BY UP TO 10%
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2015, 05:42:05 pm »

And compared to the Canon iPF8400 and HP Z3200 printers?

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Geraldo Garcia

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Re: P-SERIES HDX VIOLET INK EXPANDS GAMUT BY UP TO 10%
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2015, 07:16:05 pm »

...And according to espon it sacrifices the midtone transitions and should not be used for photograpy.
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aaronchan

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Re: P-SERIES HDX VIOLET INK EXPANDS GAMUT BY UP TO 10%
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2015, 09:01:15 pm »

...And according to espon it sacrifices the midtone transitions and should not be used for photograpy.

Iris printer wasn't for fine art or photo printing when they first got out as well.
Don't get too serious on their marketing solgan.

aaron

r010159

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Re: P-SERIES HDX VIOLET INK EXPANDS GAMUT BY UP TO 10%
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2015, 10:30:21 pm »

Iris printer wasn't for fine art or photo printing when they first got out as well.
Don't get too serious on their marketing solgan.

aaron

This does not make sense to me. Why would the Epson advertisement state a negative attribute of their inks when there is none? I usually find this type of advertisement more accurate than those that hype the pluses.

Bob
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: P-SERIES HDX VIOLET INK EXPANDS GAMUT BY UP TO 10%
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2015, 08:14:38 am »

This does not make sense to me. Why would the Epson advertisement state a negative attribute of their inks when there is none? I usually find this type of advertisement more accurate than those that hype the pluses.

Bob

It depends. Epson has inkjet heads on its wide format printers with a maximum of 10 ink channels where the competition has 12 ink channels. So it has to compromise on the number ink hues or on grey inks or on the instant availability of both Gloss and Matte Black ink where the competition's 12 ink models can use all the available inks CcMmYKkkRGB instantly. This negative attribute in its marketing has been used long before the P models and more to tone down the advantage of the competition's wider hue ink sets than to bring forward the limitations of its own technology. It has been used for the 11880 that has matte and gloss black instantly available but limits the color channels to CcMmYKk so 9 channels in total, the same negative attribute for the 8 channel 9880 that has the black ink switch etc. We are told the extra Green/Orange inks of the 9900 are only needed for Pantone color creation. When given a choice most photographers will select the printer with more ink channels like the 9900 or the Canon 12 ink printers as they have the wider gamut and that is considered an advantage for photo prints too by them.

In the P model discussed the negative attribute tells the truth more, it sacrifices (more or less definitely) a grey ink channel for a violet ink channel. That brings the P model B&W quality and neutrality in color back to the days of 9600 but not worse, the 11880 uses a similar ink set. So it depends.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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jduncan

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Re: P-SERIES HDX VIOLET INK EXPANDS GAMUT BY UP TO 10%
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2015, 01:18:51 pm »

Iris printer wasn't for fine art or photo printing when they first got out as well.
Don't get too serious on their marketing solgan.

aaron

Hi, let me see if I understand. Both the P7000 and the P9000 are recommended for photography, but the use of the optional VIOLET ink is not? the other interpretation is that we should use the  P6000 and P8000 instead.

Thanks, 
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deanwork

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Re: P-SERIES HDX VIOLET INK EXPANDS GAMUT BY UP TO 10%
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2015, 04:24:54 pm »

Well that's a gamut that is "virtually" purple. Who gives a rat's ass. They have SO many things that need fixing and I for one couldn't care less about violet and  the purplely fashion designers.



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r010159

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Re: P-SERIES HDX VIOLET INK EXPANDS GAMUT BY UP TO 10%
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2015, 07:50:04 pm »

It depends. Epson has inkjet heads on its wide format printers with a maximum of 10 ink channels where the competition has 12 ink channels. So it has to compromise on the number ink hues or on grey inks or on the instant availability of both Gloss and Matte Black ink where the competition's 12 ink models can use all the available inks CcMmYKkkRGB instantly. This negative attribute in its marketing has been used long before the P models and more to tone down the advantage of the competition's wider hue ink sets than to bring forward the limitations of its own technology. It has been used for the 11880 that has matte and gloss black instantly available but limits the color channels to CcMmYKk so 9 channels in total, the same negative attribute for the 8 channel 9880 that has the black ink switch etc. We are told the extra Green/Orange inks of the 9900 are only needed for Pantone color creation. When given a choice most photographers will select the printer with more ink channels like the 9900 or the Canon 12 ink printers as they have the wider gamut and that is considered an advantage for photo prints too by them.

In the P model discussed the negative attribute tells the truth more, it sacrifices (more or less definitely) a grey ink channel for a violet ink channel. That brings the P model B&W quality and neutrality in color back to the days of 9600 but not worse, the 11880 uses a similar ink set. So it depends.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots

First off, more inks does not necessarily relate to a larger gamut (reproducible hues). For instance, I have read test reports on the Canon Pro-10 reproduces fine B&W prints that is very difficult if not possible to tell the difference when compared with a printer that uses more grey inks, the Pro-1. This comparison is more relevant since it compares like printers using the same print head technology. Do not forget that it is not enough to reproduce a larger gamut of hues, but also produce them accurately.

Then there is the difference in print head technology. Canon apparently uses heat to place the ink as dots onto the page. The Epson uses a crystal with an electric charge to do the same thing. But this has one additional benefit. This technique can control dot size. So I think with a more sophisticated screening algorithm, more subtle changes inn hue can be implemented, sort of like the half toning method.

Taking out one color and substituting another substantially different color will definitely expand the gamut in a particular direction, but may collapse the gamut in another area. What saturated violet colors occur in real life? Where can violet be used to a real world benefit? Saturating some skies at subset or violet flowers? So I suspect that Epson did this for reasons other than providing a more accurate reproduction of a photograph. I think this is why they do not support the use of the violet for photographic purposes. For that matter, when a manufacturer does not support a particular use of their device, it is probably a good idea to heed the manufacturers warning.  Even though it may be able to be "made" to work, there are probably somer significant limitations involved. That has been my experience.

The moral of the story here is even though a technology has more of something that can enhance its performance, this does not mean the implementation of the technology is able to take full advantage of this difference. And unless you have good reason, like performed tests yourself, it is advisable to heed the manufacturers reference to the limitations of their device. Why else would they do such a thing? Why would they state something that can limit their potential sales? This does not make any sense to me. A manufacturer would not do this unless they have a really good reason to do so.

We all want our favorite printer to come out on top. But when looked in practical real world use point of view, there may be a different conclusion to be found.

PS I am in the process of researching the differences between the Pro-10 and Pro-1 for more concrete examples wrt B&W prints. I think In reality the article  I had read may be wrong. :)

UPDATE: It looks like that article of mine was in error. The Pro-1 has a noticeably higher Dmax and can produce more detail in the shadows, probably in part to the Dmax. So this was a bad example. :( But it would be interesting to compare the Epson using ABW mode with the Canon Pro-1.

Bob
« Last Edit: September 27, 2015, 01:09:09 am by r010159 »
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r010159

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Re: P-SERIES HDX VIOLET INK EXPANDS GAMUT BY UP TO 10%
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2015, 09:34:16 pm »

Well that's a gamut that is "virtually" purple. Who gives a rat's ass. They have SO many things that need fixing and I for one couldn't care less about violet and  the purplely fashion designers.

I know Epson has its problems, like nozzles that can frequently clog. Canon has a good solution for this. But specifically, what problems are you alluding to?

Both Canon and Epson have allot of benefits.  I do think of hearing that with an some Epson printers, a particular color is prone to fading? Yellow? Perhaps Epson does not perform in some areas of its gamut compared to others, where printers like Canon does a better job? Canon Pro 10 appears to be able to reproduce some colors as more saturated. I am making some WAGs here. :) But I am sure Epson has benefits over Canon in the accurate reproduction of images.

Bob
« Last Edit: September 27, 2015, 12:16:11 am by r010159 »
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: P-SERIES HDX VIOLET INK EXPANDS GAMUT BY UP TO 10%
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2015, 07:59:29 am »

But I am sure Epson has benefits over Canon in the accurate reproduction of images.

Bob

Based on what?

You mention the droplet variation size in the other message. It is not used at the highest image quality/resolution settings. The actual minimum droplet size is used then throughout all the tone ranges. That happens to be 3.5 picoliter for the Epson wide formats we discuss here, it is 4 picoliter all the time for the Canon iPF models. Corresponding to that is the highest resolution input request of resp. 720 PPI and 600 PPI. For that you have to set the Epson driver at Fine Detail. There's a thread on the subject; http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?action=printpage;topic=103520.0 Much depends on the quality of image input and on the inkjet coating of the paper. For color gamut size the droplet variation does nothing, not even at lower print resolutions if compared to the multiple dot laid down by the Canon heads to achieve the same density at high speed, lower resolution. Both companies know their technology compromises, for Epson it is harder to create high nozzle density in piëzo heads at a given price but it can create droplet variation per nozzle easier than possible with thermal heads. For Canon nozzle density is not an issue so it puts more than 2000 nozzles per ink channel in its heads. Droplet variation in thermal heads is not impossible either but the dual voltage system has been abandoned for twin nozzle systems that squirt different sized droplets, new HP heads.

You are right, more inks/hues do not translate to wider gamut 1:1. For the Z3200 HP created ample color gamut and world leading fade resistance in water based pigment inks. Do not underestimate its color mixing technology either, the grey inks and gloss black were made neutral to allow a heavy black generation in ink mixing, the RGB colors are only used where the hue saturation could not be achieved with CMY mixes, it dropped the Cyan and only uses Light Cyan and I guess the Green partly compensates that omission in darker azures etc. I do not hear customer complaints on its color gamut, not on matte not on gloss. For Canon it has been slightly different, color gamut is in the best category, first ink set showed some gloss issues but Canon solved that in the latest versions. HP added Gloss Enhancer, say in exchange for Cyan, to overcome that right away. Canon prints have a high fade resistance combined with a wide gamut. In my view Epson so far made a big compromise on fade resistance, mainly in its poor yellow ink, all to get a wide gamut with only 9 ink channels available. The mixing for neutrals in color and B&W is not top class either, both in fade resistance and "metamerism". We have to wait for good fade resistance test results whether Epson's new yellow ink brings that aspect on the same level.

I did not argue that the P violet substitution isn't a big compromise for photographic purposes, it will influence neutral printing with a grey ink less without doubt. The violet bulb on the gamut as John rightly wrote can not be seen as an advantage for a photographic gamut either but shows as well in the Canon iPF gamut. What I wrote is that in the past Epson has toned down the advantages of extra hues more in view of the competition than as a good advice to potential customers. The competition uses 3 extra hues in a harmonic way and the ink sets and printers are perfect for photography.

I own a Z3200 and a Z3100 and they are still my favorites for a couple of reasons that go beyond this color gamut discussion.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
« Last Edit: September 28, 2015, 06:13:22 am by Ernst Dinkla »
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arobinson7547

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Re: P-SERIES HDX VIOLET INK EXPANDS GAMUT BY UP TO 10%
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2015, 11:03:01 am »

Here is another take;

That Violet Ink could have been developed in such a way that it will NOT last. (short term packaging proofs)
Certainly, not like the other primary inks. This could account for their caution.

The absence of Light Black is not good, but printing a neutral CMY gray is still there.

Black and White printing is a different thing.

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deanwork

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Re: P-SERIES HDX VIOLET INK EXPANDS GAMUT BY UP TO 10%
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2015, 06:32:58 pm »

What should Epson have spent the last 10 years working on besides a violet ink?

1. Auto switching between MK and Pk. It is simply insane that that they are still asking people to throw away very expensive ink this antiquated way, much less the hassle of dealing with all that nonsense in the middle of a work day.

2. Like Canon and Hp the ink cart placement should be facing down to drain all the ink out of the cart, without wasting very expensive consumables.
such as measured here - http://petapixel.com/2015/09/11/this-is-how-much-ink-the-epson-9900-printer-wastes/

3. The print head cap station is inadequate to seal the print head, and allows the print head to dry out and either require major head cleanings or in many cases ruining the print head altogether.  It is more common for Decision One to replace a print head for $1,500.00 ( or more ) than to replace a cap station or damper assembly. And contrary to much disinformation, this is not simply the functional limits of the electric piezo head design. If that were the case all the Roland, Mimaki, as well as Epson's own 10K model would have suffered the same fate. They didn't. They worked just fine, and in the case of the Roland and Mimaki the heads were easily removed and replaced by the user. When we asked Epson to sell us heads through Compas Micro for our 9600 and 9800 printers they wouldn't allow it. They said people were using them for the "wrong reasons". ( not paying Epson to install their heads  is the wrong reason ).

4. There is something seriously wrong with their over engineered pressurized ink delivery system, in part because of the horizontal position of the ink carts. Possibly they were intentionally designed this way  to keep third party refillable ink carts out. But whatever the reason it is one big malfunctioning mess.

5. The tiny little single wiper blade for 10 inks is totally inadequate to keep the head assembly clean in the 24" and 44" printers.

6. If you have an extra ink slot to use for God's sake put an additional extra very light gray in there and watch your monochrome output dramatically improve. After 15 years of doing this I can tell you that it is not true that 2 grays and a black are equal to 3 grays and a black.  And while you are at it make sure the gray inks are not greenish brown so you are required to lay down cyan and magenta half tone dots to neutralize the color ( which usually gives you a sick bluish cyan hue, not satisfying on either matt or gloss media.This wouldn't even require a big design change or much engineering thought.

7. The one thing they FINALLY got around to was increasing the longevity of the yellow channel. But again they are 10 years behind on this and millions of prints are going to begin shifting in the reds and yellows because of it.

It could be the Epson replacement for the 11880 might be the best art printer they have ever worked out. There are rumors that it Will have an additional gray, and I hope it isn't brown gray. But it will be a year before they are released and probably another year before the verdict is in about head functioning.



I know Epson has its problems, like nozzles that can frequently clog. Canon has a good solution for this. But specifically, what problems are you alluding to?

Bob
« Last Edit: September 27, 2015, 06:55:25 pm by deanwork »
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Sarah Demers Spectraflow

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Re: P-SERIES HDX VIOLET INK EXPANDS GAMUT BY UP TO 10%
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2015, 11:28:59 am »

I think Epson recognized that they are serving multiple markets with their aqueous printers.  For their core market of photographers, the superior transitions and B&W printing offered by the standard HDX seems to be the better choice.  For packaging and clothing designers, hitting the highest range of colors is important, and replacing the LLK with Violet is a good option.
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Mussi_Spectraflow

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Re: P-SERIES HDX VIOLET INK EXPANDS GAMUT BY UP TO 10%
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2015, 01:33:46 pm »

   Hi all,

It's true that on paper this isn't the evolutionary jump that the X900 was from the X880 series. This new printer represents a measured and incremental improvement over the X900 series. It's also worth noting that printer isn't yet shipping and it's worth withholding some judgements until it's actually out in the hands of working professionals. The quality of the printer is also likely to improve over time. I used both beta 7900 and Z3100 and Z3200 printers back in the day and they both improved dramatically in the first year after introduction(especially the Z3100) thanks to firmware tweaks.

Here's my .02 cents on a few issues raised by some of the previous comments.

1. B/W.
The black has been reformulated. I can't comment yet on how this will impact gray balance. In terms of the smoothness of tonal transitions it can't really be argued that having an extra shade of black provides an extra "tool" for making smooth and neutral gray ramps. That said, screening, drop size, LUT's and software ultimately are what drive quality in this area. I remember looking at 720x720 prints on the 9900 compared to 1440X720 prints on the 9800 and they were visually almost identical. Screening and drop size produced a better looking print even with less addressable "resolution".

In terms of gray balance there's the out of the box neutrality of the inks, one area where HP did quite well. And then there's the perceptual gray balance of a print. This later is really a function of the color management systems which varies by application, profile, resolution etc. One area Epson has put a lot of energy into is improving the internal color tables. This has a big impact on gray neutrality and color gamut overall. While 3 channel gray is arguably going to give the best results for full B/W prints, I suspect that the quality achieved by 2 channel gray will still be very good. Would it have been nice to have an extra channel and not have had to make the choice, sure.

2. Mechanical - The new printer uses new components in a number of places. It remains to be seen how much of an impact this will have on reduced nozzle cogs and more reliable cleaning, but I suspect it will be noticeable. Only time will tell. The issue of pressurized inks and ink waste is one of those touchy subject so I'm going to tread lightly. Sure the black ink switch is less than ideal, it also eliminates  the need for a dedicated channel on the print head for each ink. Keep in mind that the printer is built with a print head that has 5 rows of nozzles, with two colors per row. How those channels are used is something that can be changed relatively easily. Reengineering the head is a more complicated task, and one that affects not just Epson but all the people they supply print heads to. As far as ink waste, yes piezo print heads use ink to clean themselves. Canon and HP have replaceable print heads, a result of the thermal print head technology. They both have their plusses an minuses. I hand it to Canon in that I think they have a very nice balance of technologies that result in a low TCO. Epson's gotten a lot better, and I'll also add that the video currently circulating is missing an important detail. Mainly that when you buy a 350ml cart it has more than 350ml of ink in it to start. Not saying that the cleaning doesn't waste ink, it does. But it's important to give all the details when making a critical evaluation of a technology.

One area that's not getting a lot of press, and probably isn't as interesting to the photo world, is the new management system built into the printer and the optional hard drive. In the enterprise world this is kind of a big deal. This printer is targeted at a WIDE range of users. Photography, proofing, graphic design, color accurate CADs, fine art, etc.... They aren't going to please everyone. But they cast a wide net in terms of providing features for many audiences.

3. Color - Color's my thing, and yet I'm kind of tired of talking about color gamut in inkjet printers. Depending on how you slice it you'll find gamut "advantages" in each of the Canon, HP, or Epson printers. Generally these are somewhat small differences. All produce amazing output. Substrate choices have a huge impact on color gamut, this was especially true for the HP on matte paper. Good profiles can easily shift color gamut 10%, and different profiling tools and settings also have a big impact. Using a RIP can influence this although the growing trend have been to use the OEM "screening" which means you'll likely get the same color as you would out of the OEM drivers. This is a result of the complexity introduced by having CMYK+ ink sets. At the end of the day these printers let an individual customize the printer to prioritize what's most important to them. If you do product photography or graphic design then violet might be a killer feature. General purpose photography will probably be fine with either configuration, and heavily focused BW and will probably keep the extra K.

Once we get our final shipping printer there will be plenty more to share!

Thanks,

Julian Mussi
Spectraflow
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deanwork

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Re: P-SERIES HDX VIOLET INK EXPANDS GAMUT BY UP TO 10%
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2015, 07:03:23 pm »

Moderate improvement indeed! It sounds to me like the only improvement is finally making a more lasting yellow. That is important, but hardly and excuse to come out with a whole new printer series. If they are going to do that they should offer this ink to all the 7900, 9890, and 9900 owners that deserve to have it.

As far as state of the art black and white high-end inkjet photographic printing, three grays and one black is a minimum. I'm not talking about designers, I don't care about designers. This is not new news, we've known this for about 15 years. And please let's not talk about Epson ABW, that is amateur at best.

As to the 7900 & 9900 being a major improvement over the 7800 & 9800 that is a joke. Despite all the headaches of MK to Pk switching and some clogged nozzles, the 9800 series was a much more reliable and long lasting printer. The 9900/9890 series has been the most problem prone printers that Epson has ever produced and a simple Google search will quickly point that out. Yea you have a little more intense gamut. Once again as a photographer, I couldn't care less.

As to the video link I pasted about the amazing ink rip off of the 9900 series. This ironically was not pointing out all the ink wasted in the cleaning process ( as horrible as that is ) it was pointing out how much ink was LEFT IN The CARTS AFTER all that cleaning waste was completed. So, you get hit twice - inefficient cleaning and unacceptable ink left in the carts that goes to the landfill because of this poorly designed pressurized head set up. NO - Canon and HP do not do that to you, leave a ton of ink in the "empty" carts.

I don't mean to be a smart ass and I certainly don't have any stake in marketing Canon or HP machines. I just get tired off all this Epson sales propaganda year after year being passed around before anyone has even used one of the new printers, much less have one for any length of time to evaluate it. 

New does not equate to improved when it comes to Epson. Maybe Apple but not Epson.

John
« Last Edit: September 28, 2015, 07:07:07 pm by deanwork »
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Farmer

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Re: P-SERIES HDX VIOLET INK EXPANDS GAMUT BY UP TO 10%
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2015, 07:55:02 pm »

Maybe people should evaluate both before they praise, and before they condemn...
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: P-SERIES HDX VIOLET INK EXPANDS GAMUT BY UP TO 10%
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2015, 03:29:00 am »

   Hi all,
(snip)
Once we get our final shipping printer there will be plenty more to share!

Thanks,

Julian Mussi
Spectraflow

Thanks Julian, All good points in your message. We will wait for the gamut plots of the new Epsons versus Canon etc and keep our eye on the P600-P800 test results of Aardenburg Imaging to see what the yellow ink does in time.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots

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Doombrain

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Re: P-SERIES HDX VIOLET INK EXPANDS GAMUT BY UP TO 10%
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2015, 10:47:44 am »

Moderate improvement indeed! It sounds to me like the only improvement is finally making a more lasting yellow. That is important, but hardly and excuse to come out with a whole new printer series. If they are going to do that they should offer this ink to all the 7900, 9890, and 9900 owners that deserve to have it.

As far as state of the art black and white high-end inkjet photographic printing, three grays and one black is a minimum. I'm not talking about designers, I don't care about designers. This is not new news, we've known this for about 15 years. And please let's not talk about Epson ABW, that is amateur at best.

As to the 7900 & 9900 being a major improvement over the 7800 & 9800 that is a joke. Despite all the headaches of MK to Pk switching and some clogged nozzles, the 9800 series was a much more reliable and long lasting printer. The 9900/9890 series has been the most problem prone printers that Epson has ever produced and a simple Google search will quickly point that out. Yea you have a little more intense gamut. Once again as a photographer, I couldn't care less.

As to the video link I pasted about the amazing ink rip off of the 9900 series. This ironically was not pointing out all the ink wasted in the cleaning process ( as horrible as that is ) it was pointing out how much ink was LEFT IN The CARTS AFTER all that cleaning waste was completed. So, you get hit twice - inefficient cleaning and unacceptable ink left in the carts that goes to the landfill because of this poorly designed pressurized head set up. NO - Canon and HP do not do that to you, leave a ton of ink in the "empty" carts.

I don't mean to be a smart ass and I certainly don't have any stake in marketing Canon or HP machines. I just get tired off all this Epson sales propaganda year after year being passed around before anyone has even used one of the new printers, much less have one for any length of time to evaluate it. 

New does not equate to improved when it comes to Epson. Maybe Apple but not Epson.

John

OK, we get it.
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Mussi_Spectraflow

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Re: P-SERIES HDX VIOLET INK EXPANDS GAMUT BY UP TO 10%
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2015, 12:50:24 pm »

Sounds like this might not be the printer for you  ;)

You've made some valid points and all the current printers by Canon, Epson, and HP are very capable machines. I think Epson's strength is that they have a single machine that works well in many markets. That means making some compromises. Some of which are bound to make some people unhappy. I have no stake in defending decisions made by any vendor, simply pointing out what has changed and potential areas of improvement.

The only point I really want to respond to is the issue of reliability. In my job as a consultant I've overseen the install and management of several very large printer roll-outs, at least a half dozen in the 30-110 unit single site setups. My personal experience is that the 7900 and 9900 units are reliable machines as long as they are used regularly. The 4900 admittedly did have some issues that in my opinion made it more susceptible to problems than it's bigger brothers. The bottom line is that the experience around these printers varies wildly by user type, geographic location and by season.

One thing I tell people up front is that these printers are designed to be used. Sitting for two weeks between uses is generally going to result in the need for a cleaning. Cleaning means you're fixing a problem and of course it's better to avoid the problem in the first place. That means running ink through the head regularly. Ironically the printers in high volume locations seem to have less issues than those in low volume locations for this reason. Epson sees these as production printers. That's not to say they aren't well suited for photographers, that's obviously a key market for Epson. But when you buy a LF Epson you need to commit to a certain degree of maintenance. For some people this is a PITA, and printers like the Canon iPF 6400 have done a great job in delivering a virtually maintenance free experience. That said the ipf 6400 isn't as well suited for very high volume locations. From my perspective it's a matter of the right tool for the right job.

Thanks,

Julian Mussi
Spectraflow

Moderate improvement indeed! It sounds to me like the only improvement is finally making a more lasting yellow. That is important, but hardly and excuse to come out with a whole new printer series. If they are going to do that they should offer this ink to all the 7900, 9890, and 9900 owners that deserve to have it.

As far as state of the art black and white high-end inkjet photographic printing, three grays and one black is a minimum. I'm not talking about designers, I don't care about designers. This is not new news, we've known this for about 15 years. And please let's not talk about Epson ABW, that is amateur at best.

As to the 7900 & 9900 being a major improvement over the 7800 & 9800 that is a joke. Despite all the headaches of MK to Pk switching and some clogged nozzles, the 9800 series was a much more reliable and long lasting printer. The 9900/9890 series has been the most problem prone printers that Epson has ever produced and a simple Google search will quickly point that out. Yea you have a little more intense gamut. Once again as a photographer, I couldn't care less.

As to the video link I pasted about the amazing ink rip off of the 9900 series. This ironically was not pointing out all the ink wasted in the cleaning process ( as horrible as that is ) it was pointing out how much ink was LEFT IN The CARTS AFTER all that cleaning waste was completed. So, you get hit twice - inefficient cleaning and unacceptable ink left in the carts that goes to the landfill because of this poorly designed pressurized head set up. NO - Canon and HP do not do that to you, leave a ton of ink in the "empty" carts.

I don't mean to be a smart ass and I certainly don't have any stake in marketing Canon or HP machines. I just get tired off all this Epson sales propaganda year after year being passed around before anyone has even used one of the new printers, much less have one for any length of time to evaluate it. 

New does not equate to improved when it comes to Epson. Maybe Apple but not Epson.

John
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Julian Mussi
 Spectraflow, Color Workflow
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