Kudos to the LuLa new Sony A7rII camera review article

[Paul2660]

Quick thanks to Lula, and Michael Tapes for the current camera comparison article. It made me feel a bit more sane as I also found the A7rII to have more noise when pushed at base iso (thought I might be the only person).  As a more base to medium iso shooter, I passed on the A7rII after testing it for a few days.  Stayed with the D810 for now.  Also the AF situation for Nikon users is non existent at this time.  I found the meatiness Nikon adapter to be trash, as it jammed on one of Zeiss lenses which is off to SK Grimes to remove.  The Novoflex adapter is great, but you have no idea what F stop you are at, as there is no click, just a smooth rotation. 

One note, I would love to see the D750 compared as the other cameras (since the 1dx was used), as I have personally found the D750 to be the cleanest camera I have ever shot, up to 10K iso, extremely impressive. 

I felt the test subject in the video was a good one and it showed a very good example of the compromises one is faced at higher iso ranges, with both color saturation and loss of details. 

One other question for the testers.  I am a big fan of astrophotography and had hoped the Sony A7rII would be a good solution.  I mainly stack long exposures, over a period of 2 to 3 hours.  Average exposure will be 90 seconds at iso 400.  From what I have seen so far, the Sony seems to have some problems with stuck pixels with continued longer exposures, unless the "long exposure noise reduction" is used.  For stacking that is a no go.  It seems the Sony possibly can over heat over longer periods of continued use, but I base this only on other reviews.  I am interested is seeing what LuLa finds.

Paul Caldwell

[uaiomex]

So far I've seen only reviews in which the A7r2 is pushed five stops sometime even more at high isos. I would love someone publish a test using base iso at several minutes and without pushing exposure. Right, like when using a camera with focus and awareness.

[rdonson]

All this is wonderful fodder for pixel peepers, as Michael would say.  I'm sure the pros and cons of the cameras and test methodology will be debated for months to come. 

I think it's time to just take pictures rather than gaze at our navels (pixels).  Any of the cameras in the test in capable hands can be used to produce amazing images. 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

I think it's time to just take pictures rather than gaze at our navels (pixels).

Hi,

You push the button the camera does the rest, is not really how most professional photographers tend to approach their craft ...
Mastering one's tools and technique is important to distinguish from wannabe photographers. It's certainly not the only thing that makes a good image, but it may one of the few things that separates a professional from a talented creative amateur.

Cheers,
Bart

[shadowblade]

I'm not sure - I think we need to test it again after the lossless RAW firmware update, as well as compare it against the D810 at ISO 100 (not just base vs base).

Would have loved for the A7rii to have a base ISO of 50, or even 25, though...

[synn]

Hi,

You push the button the camera does the rest, is not really how most professional photographers tend to approach their craft ...
Mastering one's tools and technique is important to distinguish from wannabe photographers. It's certainly not the only thing that makes a good image, but it may one of the few things that separates a professional from a talented creative amateur.

Cheers,
Bart

...and the difference between a professional and a measurebator is that the professional understands the technical side of it and finds workarounds for whatever that is not optimal. The latter focuses on the problems and waits for eternity for the perfect camera to be fedexed from the heavens.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

...and the difference between a professional and a measurebator is that the professional understands the technical side of it and finds workarounds for whatever that is not optimal. The latter focuses on the problems and waits for eternity for the perfect camera to be fedexed from the heavens.

[...] understands the technical side [...]

And therein lies the crux, Sandeep. Like those who e.g. erroneously think that CCD sensors produce better color than CMOS devices. They then seek the wrong workaround/solution, instead of proper profiling ...

Without proper technical understanding and resulting skill set, a professional will be put out of business rather quickly by most talented amateurs.

Cheers,
Bart

[synn]

There is a very talented full time pro here who holds the opinion that CCD cameras produce better color than CMOS ones. He also does his own color profiling and as far as I can see, his images look stunning.
Also, as far as I know, he is in no danger of being put out of business by talented amateurs.

I am sure he values his time enough to actually shoot and sell his services than keep thinking "But I am SCIENTIFICALLY WRONG! Must find a real solution!".

...anyway, I am not going to flog that CCD vs CMOS dead horse yet again. This thread isn't about that. Moving on.

[Paul2660]

Actually I didn't take this article to be a measurebater type of review, but actually very well done.  Considering it's all done on video I can appreciate the edit time alone. 

As a owner of a D810, it's clear to me that the gap is not very far between these two cameras, however the Sony does seem to handle the higher iso ranges much better (not an area I use that much at least for now).  The D810 still shines in the base iso range, it's just that good. 

As I said before, I really hope LuLa takes the Sony into some hard exposure stacks, to see if the number of stuck pixels is as bad as some are reporting and this is at base iso to 400.  C1 has the only solution so far to get these out with their superior "single pixel noise" setting, but many times I just don't prefer the look of C1's output on night shots, also LR's auto mask has huge advantages for night work, (but I have moved off topic).

Paul

[labirdman]

Always sort of strange to see people saying "just go out and take some pictures" on a gear forum. This is "Cameras, Lenses and Shooting gear", right?  SMH.

[synn]

Actually I didn't take this article to be a measurebater type of review, but actually very well done.  Considering it's all done on video I can appreciate the edit time alone. 

As a owner of a D810, it's clear to me that the gap is not very far between these two cameras, however the Sony does seem to handle the higher iso ranges much better (not an area I use that much at least for now).  The D810 still shines in the base iso range, it's just that good. 

As I said before, I really hope LuLa takes the Sony into some hard exposure stacks, to see if the number of stuck pixels is as bad as some are reporting and this is at base iso to 400.  C1 has the only solution so far to get these out with their superior "single pixel noise" setting, but many times I just don't prefer the look of C1's output on night shots, also LR's auto mask has huge advantages for night work, (but I have moved off topic).

Paul

Nah, no complaints from me about the review either, it was done very well and was pretty much the opposite of measurebating.
It was just a comment on the post that I was responding to. Sorry for taking this opp topic for a couple of posts.

As far as the difference between Sony and Nikon is concerned, multiple sources have reported over the years that Nikon does some propreitary cooking of their RAW files (And I mean that in a good way) that allows them to get the most out of the sensors they use. Perhaps, Sony's electronics team haven't found their secret sauce yet.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I think you have misread BC's article on the profiling issue. I was posting a question about it his profiling to which he posted a very elaborate response. BC, whom I guess you are referring to doesn't talk about profiling in the conventional sense but matching illumination to the characteristics of the sensor.

As a contrast, Anders Torger another frequent poster on these forum has developed a profiling solution for both DCP and ICC profiles and he essentially has found that sensor differences are vastly overrated while camera profiles are underrated.

Best regards
Erik

There is a very talented full time pro here who holds the opinion that CCD cameras produce better color than CMOS ones. He also does his own color profiling and as far as I can see, his images look stunning.
Also, as far as I know, he is in no danger of being put out of business by talented amateurs.

I am sure he values his time enough to actually shoot and sell his services than keep thinking "But I am SCIENTIFICALLY WRONG! Must find a real solution!".

...anyway, I am not going to flog that CCD vs CMOS dead horse yet again. This thread isn't about that. Moving on.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I posted some images from my A7rII here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Shoots/Sony_A7rII_samples/

In this case I was shooting a lot of dark places, but not very long exposures as I seldom go beyond 30s. The A7rII switches to 12 bit mode on long exposures as far as I understand, when using "B". I have not been using long exposure noise reduction. I don't really see to be long exposures, except for testing.

I feel there is a lot of disrespect shown to contributors on these forums especially from folks that seldom contribute any good stuff. The first thing anyone needs to do deserving respect is showing respect for others. Michael has done some good work on this and I think it is worth some respect. We don't need to agree. Now, if we have a well founded view contradicting the findings we may show evidence the contrary. But discrediting authors without any proof of our own is just lack of manners and good judgement.

Just to say, nothing of that applies to you. Your postings are always worth reading.

Best regards
Erik

Actually I didn't take this article to be a measurebater type of review, but actually very well done.  Considering it's all done on video I can appreciate the edit time alone. 

As a owner of a D810, it's clear to me that the gap is not very far between these two cameras, however the Sony does seem to handle the higher iso ranges much better (not an area I use that much at least for now).  The D810 still shines in the base iso range, it's just that good. 

As I said before, I really hope LuLa takes the Sony into some hard exposure stacks, to see if the number of stuck pixels is as bad as some are reporting and this is at base iso to 400.  C1 has the only solution so far to get these out with their superior "single pixel noise" setting, but many times I just don't prefer the look of C1's output on night shots, also LR's auto mask has huge advantages for night work, (but I have moved off topic).

Paul

[Paul2660]

Hi Eric,

I have followed your posts on your work with the A7rII.  I was all ready to keep it, until I started seeing the issues with 12bit conversions, especially with bright objects, (again night work mainly).  Some really strange issues, that I knew would be "heck" to fix in post, mainly streaking off of highlights, like the moon or stars or both but also on some buildings.

The news that Sony will offer full raw is great news on this camera, however as you pointed out, on bulb, the camera drops to the 12bit conversion and I am wondering if Sony will change that also?

Paul

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi Paul,

The streaking you see may be a result of the "delta compression". To me it is a brain damaged thing and I am quite hopeful that Sony will remove it.

The 12-bit issue, I don't know. It may be that the sensor is not capable of producing 13+ bit worth of data, in which case it would be reasonable to use just 12 bits.

I am not sure I have seen these effects in my shots. My impression is that both Nikon and Pentax make better use of the Sony sensor than Sony themselves. My guess is that the Sony Bionz ASIC is jut 12 bit wide and Sony does some tricks to put 14 bits worth of data trough that 12 bit wide pipe line. But, that is just a guess, I don't know!

Best regards
Erik

Hi Eric,

I have followed your posts on your work with the A7rII.  I was all ready to keep it, until I started seeing the issues with 12bit conversions, especially with bright objects, (again night work mainly).  Some really strange issues, that I knew would be "heck" to fix in post, mainly streaking off of highlights, like the moon or stars or both but also on some buildings.

The news that Sony will offer full raw is great news on this camera, however as you pointed out, on bulb, the camera drops to the 12bit conversion and I am wondering if Sony will change that also?

Paul

[Torbjörn Tapani]

What happens in a long exposure. Does noise levels rise to the point that the noise floor is so high that there is no longer 13 or 14 bits of information left? I mean even with the lens cap on the sensor records something right?