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Author Topic: Home Mounting Substrates - Foamcore, Gatorboard, others?  (Read 8529 times)

ThirstyDursty

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Home Mounting Substrates - Foamcore, Gatorboard, others?
« on: September 22, 2015, 07:48:50 pm »

For an exhibition of large panos images I had them mounted on Gatorboard, I then varnished and finished with a thin metal frame.

I really like this look. Interested in doing it all myself at home. And I don't want to buy a table saw ;)

Wondering what I need to know about cutting gatorboard (or do I really need a table saw?), what adhesive to use (assume some pressure activated film -recommend any?), what tools I need etc.

A resource would be good (website or book) and if your in Australia, wholesale suppliers. Thinking of getting an account at Antons.

And also when to use Foamcore vs Gatorboard/kappaboard. I understand gator has a harder surface...assume Foamcore would be too soft for exposed prints. 

Finally, what kind of lifespan can I give to a varnished print on Gatorboard? Any special care instructions for cleaning etc?
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ThirstyDursty

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Re: Home Mounting Substrates - Foamcore, Gatorboard, others?
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2015, 07:58:04 pm »



Example of one of the prints ~40cm x 1.8m


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Richard.Wills

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Re: Home Mounting Substrates - Foamcore, Gatorboard, others?
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2015, 08:15:22 pm »

My understanding (UK based) is that Gator is an expanded PVC foam board - similar to 3A Composite Forex. Doesn't require a table saw, just a carefully controlled utility blade. We use either a (Foster) Keencut Javelin - a utility blade on a very accurate ruler, or (Foster) Keencut SteelTrak - wall mounted larger version. Forex, and Kapamount can both be cut with a hand held utility blade, but the results are a damned sight better with a blade held at 90 degrees, traveling on a straight edge.
See http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=98607.0 for other options.

Adhesives: mount with a roller laminater., if you're planning on doing any quantity, or for that matter, if you want control of the results.

There was a series of threads earlier this summer started by DieneyToy, that cover the basics of what you're looking for.

Varnished prints - I bow to the wisdom of others.
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Home Mounting Substrates - Foamcore, Gatorboard, others?
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2015, 03:44:26 am »

My understanding (UK based) is that Gator is an expanded PVC foam board - similar to 3A Composite Forex.

Where do you get this stuff from in the UK?

Jeremy
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GrahamBy

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Re: Home Mounting Substrates - Foamcore, Gatorboard, others?
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2015, 05:54:50 am »

It might be worth getting a table saw anyway, if you've got the space. Grab a super-cheap Chinese option from Bunnings, switch the blade to a good quality tungsten, and you'll be set to cut pretty much anything: frames, mdf mounts, dibond (I'm an amateur machinist and use this sort of set up to slice up hunks of aviation grade aluminium prior to putting them in the lathe or mill, or to use as-is).
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BobShaw

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Re: Home Mounting Substrates - Foamcore, Gatorboard, others?
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2015, 06:23:33 am »

Eckersleys sell Gatorboard at a price. My understanding is that it is just a dense 10mm foam board. You can get this form Antons in adhesive and non adhesive.

As for cutting it with a saw, I think it would just go break up but give it a go.

I use a Keencut vertical cutter for foam board.

If you have any difficulty contact me on the Aspiration Images website.

As for longevity? I doubt an ink jet without glass will go the distance.
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stcstc31

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Re: Home Mounting Substrates - Foamcore, Gatorboard, others?
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2015, 06:36:12 am »

Where do you get this stuff from in the UK?

Jeremy

most sign materials suppliers will sell it, normally called foamex in the uk

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Stephen Crozier

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ThirstyDursty

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Re: Home Mounting Substrates - Foamcore, Gatorboard, others?
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2015, 08:55:44 am »


Eckersleys sell Gatorboard at a price. My understanding is that it is just a dense 10mm foam board. You can get this form Antons in adhesive and non adhesive.

Eckersley is Highway robbery.

It is a PVC foam...veneered in a wood fiber. It has much more torsional rigidity and doesn't dent as easily.



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Paul2660

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Re: Home Mounting Substrates - Foamcore, Gatorboard, others?
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2015, 09:18:40 am »

For an exhibition of large panos images I had them mounted on Gatorboard, I then varnished and finished with a thin metal frame.

I really like this look. Interested in doing it all myself at home. And I don't want to buy a table saw ;)

Wondering what I need to know about cutting gatorboard (or do I really need a table saw?), what adhesive to use (assume some pressure activated film -recommend any?), what tools I need etc.

A resource would be good (website or book) and if your in Australia, wholesale suppliers. Thinking of getting an account at Antons.

And also when to use Foamcore vs Gatorboard/kappaboard. I understand gator has a harder surface...assume Foamcore would be too soft for exposed prints. 

Finally, what kind of lifespan can I give to a varnished print on Gatorboard? Any special care instructions for cleaning etc?

Gator comes in white and black, I prefer black.  Most gator I have used is not considered Archival as it contains formaldehyde among other nasty stuff.  However the glue I use (Miracle Muck) creates a layer that is neutral that so far has kept any major pass through contamination issues.  However just be aware of this.  Black is easier to work with with white glue or mounting tissue as you can see the material.  It will have no issues with the print, i.e. darkening.

Foamcore in my experience is best used with mounting tissue, like Bienfang rag mount.  Larger prints, than same 24 x 36 you might want to consider 1/2.  I don't like using wet mounts on foam core, like M Muck.

Gator comes in 3/16 and 1/2 (possibly other larger sizes), and both can be cut by hand with a straight edge.  Gator has a unique ability to snap, so all you have to do is make a straight cut, grab both sides and snap the rest.  This will sometimes leave a slight ragged edge, but you can sand that down, but also if you are going to frame it, (I would), you won't see it.  So cutting, just get a good straight ledge, and utility blade and cut away.

I only use gator for either RC paper or canvas, I do not mount rag (fiber) based paper to it.  RC is a great paper to use, however you still have an exposed face and it will scratch.  Canvas is the best solution and I use this a lot in my work and prints for others.  Reason, it gives a easy way to get a longer print, cheaply mounted without the risk of dust or other trash showing under the print.  RC and gator is totally unforgiving as RC has a hard surface as does gator  so any trash will show up as a bump.  Canvas, is to me much easier to mount, I use muck for my mounts.  You will need to coat the canvas, even glossy canvas as all inkjet canvas is aqueous.  So during the mounting you possibly may get water or muck on the face of the print.  If this happens odds are you will pull ink off.  Some do this a bit differently, with a heat press.  You can roll on the muck, let it dry, then lay your canvas on the dried muck and put it in a heat press, the heat re-activates the muck and it makes a perfect bond.  Only problem is a large heat press, they tend to be hard to find (and when found are not cheap to use). 

I have mounted up to 36 x 96 on 1/2 gator for a single print (and would rather do this than stretch such a print), and have made several  4 part prints, each part being 36 x 72 allow 1/2 gator.  You have a ton of framing options available to you, just make sure you have a 1/2 rabbet on the frame.  You can use metal or wood. 

Gator is also a bit more forgiving for shows, as you can easily just open the frame, pull out a print, place a new one and show, whereas, a stretch, mean, pulling off the current canvas, (trashing that print) and re-stretching a new print.  Much more time. 

Lifespan, so far, I have not seen any issues, fading, or peeling on the works I have produced over the last 10 years.  With canvas, I have always coated the front to help prevent UV fading, with Timeless, and before that Glamour II.

You can read more here:

http://photosofarkansas.com/2015/03/16/mounting-canvas-to-substrate-producing-an-excellent-option-for-framing-a-canvas-print//

As with everything, there is not one right way to do this, but this article can give you some good ideas.

Paul
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 09:23:23 am by Paul2660 »
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Paul Caldwell
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ThirstyDursty

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Re: Home Mounting Substrates - Foamcore, Gatorboard, others?
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2015, 07:29:20 pm »

Does a manual roll laminator work well? Or do I need a electric with foot peddle? My volume is low...but if it saves heaps on errors and other problems.

This appears to open up lots of display options. Mount with pressure film to most substrates, facemount to acrylic. I'd combine this with a cutter. I've found a used substrate/glass/acrylic cutter similar to the upright fletcher.


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BobShaw

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Re: Home Mounting Substrates - Foamcore, Gatorboard, others?
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2015, 09:40:36 pm »

If your volume is low and it is for an exhibition then do you really want a Bunnings handyman result?
I hope the distortion in the picture was just the way you took it. It looks like it is supported just in the middle which at 1.8m wide will never work.
By the time you buy the things you need you could have paid to have them done professionally.

I haven't used Gatorboard but it sounds non archival anyway.
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ThirstyDursty

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Re: Home Mounting Substrates - Foamcore, Gatorboard, others?
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2015, 02:06:59 am »


If your volume is low and it is for an exhibition then do you really want a Bunnings handyman result?
I hope the distortion in the picture was just the way you took it. It looks like it is supported just in the middle which at 1.8m wide will never work.
By the time you buy the things you need you could have paid to have them done professionally.

I haven't used Gatorboard but it sounds non archival anyway.

I did have them done professionally...well the mounting on Gatorboard. I varnished and assembled the frames.

As I like to do things myself, my query was about what I needed to own and learn to replicate.

The photo above has a wire across back...just needs to be shorter if hung on one hook, but two hooks on the wire is the plan. The picture and frame weight about 1kg. The bow was due to poor my assembly. To seat the clips, the frame got pushed in top and bottom....I noticed this with the photos shortly after hanging...I just released some clip pressure and the frame straightened then reapplied the pressure.

As for Archival....I guess I'm firmly in the wall decor market here ;)

I would like to know the expected lifespan and how and when degradation will show. I don't and neither do my customers expect them to last 80+yrs...if lasted 1/4 of that I doubt any would have a real issue.

Much of the lifespan will be affected by where they hang it in their house.

Normally, I frame traditionally with glass and mat.


But due to number and size of pieces...glass was going to be expensive, heavy and some would say dangerous.

Cost of frame metal frame $35, cost of mount on Gatorboard $40, cost of varnish maybe ??$5-10??

I really like the way they look too...the lack of glazing helps the colour pop, and no reflections...just a light luster. And minimal edge with the metal frames.

I'd be open to an alternative...but foamcore is too soft and flexible, MDF is definitely not archival, Kappamount?

I guess I'm a little interested in the effects of non-archival materials.

Most cheap framers use MDF backing. Is it the cotton that reacts? What about alpha-cellulose papers? If you use cheap mat board that isn't buffered or museum grade, what will be the affect and over what time period?

I'm sure those questions are too open ended to really be answerable.


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Paul2660

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Re: Home Mounting Substrates - Foamcore, Gatorboard, others?
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2015, 07:57:08 am »

Albeit gator is not archival I would not worry about it.

Net the glue used will act as a barrier between work (canvas) and gator. If you use Ragmount for a paper print same thing. Ragmount by bienfang.

I will also bet most folks are not using acid free foam core either.

Gator gives you a great way to mount large prints both canvas and paper.  Very effective and cost affordable.

Paul



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Paul Caldwell
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ThirstyDursty

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Re: Home Mounting Substrates - Foamcore, Gatorboard, others?
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2015, 09:35:10 am »



I will also bet most folks are not using acid free foam core either.

Or mat boards




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Peter McLennan

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Re: Home Mounting Substrates - Foamcore, Gatorboard, others?
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2017, 03:02:54 pm »

Just beginning my relationship with Gator and need some advice. I'll be mounting inkjet prints up to 40" in the long dimension using the self-sticky stuff and a roller applicator.

1) are there any Gator alternates that are cheaper or better?

2) any advice on cutting and trimming to size?  My Logan matte cutter falters at this task. I'm considering using either a drywall router or a straight edge and hand blade. Any advice on a good safety straightedge and hand cutter?

thanks!

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patjoja

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Re: Home Mounting Substrates - Foamcore, Gatorboard, others?
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2017, 02:22:32 am »

For an exhibition of large panos images I had them mounted on Gatorboard, I then varnished and finished with a thin metal frame.

I really like this look. Interested in doing it all myself at home. And I don't want to buy a table saw ;)

Wondering what I need to know about cutting gatorboard (or do I really need a table saw?), what adhesive to use (assume some pressure activated film -recommend any?), what tools I need etc.

A resource would be good (website or book) and if your in Australia, wholesale suppliers. Thinking of getting an account at Antons.

And also when to use Foamcore vs Gatorboard/kappaboard. I understand gator has a harder surface...assume Foamcore would be too soft for exposed prints. 

Finally, what kind of lifespan can I give to a varnished print on Gatorboard? Any special care instructions for cleaning etc?

Gatorfoam can be purchased with a self adhesive backing.  I've found https://www.foamboardsource.com/ to have very good pricing.  Gatorfoam can be cut on a table saw, but it's messy.  I use a Keencut mat cutter. 

Robert Rodriguez has a pretty good tutorial on how to layout the work on Gatorfoam accurately.  My only suggestion would be to not cut the release paper as he shows, but rather fold back a short section.  Every time I tried cutting the release paper it raised up a slice of the adhesive which resulted in a 'line' on my print.

Patrick




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BrianBeauban

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Re: Home Mounting Substrates - Foamcore, Gatorboard, others?
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2017, 11:08:11 am »

I'd like to chime in if I may. I have been mounting and laminating for 33 years and this is an easy process if you have the right tools, are careful, and take your time. First off, if you can find adhesive coated gatorfoam then by all means that should be your first choice. To properly equip yourself to coat and mount your own prints, it can get expensive quickly. Case in point, just a laminator for example, a decent one will cost upwards of $10k or more. I work for AGL in the US and our starting price is right around $15k for an entry level machine. As with any craft, it takes time and practice to get good enough that you don't at least occasionally wreck a print. However, with practice it is possible to hand apply a print to a substrate already coated with a pressure sensitive adhesive. I've done it with prints as large as 4' x 12'. Cleanliness is key! Clean your work surfaces, clean your print and clean your gator, then check them again.

Another option is dry mounting with a heated dry mount press. Or wet mounting with a glue and vacuum press or glue machine. This can be messy but it works.

Surface coating
I am not sure what you mean by varnish, but I hope it is not polyurethane or shellac. Spray lacquer can be applied, either water-based or solvent. Again you'll need a clean area and proper ventilation and breathing protection. If you invest in a laminator then it's only natural to invest in film lamination. Laminate can also be applied using a heated dry mount press but not hand applied.

This is the short answer, there's a whole book written by Chris Paschke, The Mounting and Laminating Handbook, which explores most of the options available and covers techniques and pitfalls. Most of her expertise involves dry mounting and framing but it's still worth reading.

As far as substrate selection is concerned I prefer 1/2' gator on prints larger than 24" x 36" for its stability, 3/16" can be used on smaller prints, rag board for anything archival, and foamcore for anything short term that's intended to get discarded. The latter statement is primarily due to foamcore's tendency to warp and the poor uneven surface. Yes, there are ways to try and control that tendency but why bother when there are so many other options?
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Frodo

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Re: Home Mounting Substrates - Foamcore, Gatorboard, others?
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2017, 01:49:31 pm »

I mount on half inch MDF, which I have routered a nice edge onto.  I paint on a good quality primer/undercoat to seal any formaldehyde, and paint the edges in matt black paint.
I use Scotch 568 re-positionable adhesive film to mount the photos.  This works well in allowing sub-millimetre accuracy in positioning, which is important when aligning the edge of the print with the (routered) edge of the mounting oard.  The Scotch adhesive film gives a very smooth finish, provided the painted MDF has been sanded.  The only issue is that sometimes adhesive pills away from the cut edge and can deposit on the print. Use the supplied plastic spatula to apply the film, not a roller.
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patjoja

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Re: Home Mounting Substrates - Foamcore, Gatorboard, others?
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2017, 02:58:13 am »

Just beginning my relationship with Gator and need some advice. I'll be mounting inkjet prints up to 40" in the long dimension using the self-sticky stuff and a roller applicator.

1) are there any Gator alternates that are cheaper or better?

2) any advice on cutting and trimming to size?  My Logan matte cutter falters at this task. I'm considering using either a drywall router or a straight edge and hand blade. Any advice on a good safety straightedge and hand cutter?

thanks!

I gave up on trying to cut my prints after mounting on gatorfoam.  Now I precisely cut the print to the same size as the gatorfoam and use framing weights to hold the print on the gatorfoam after aligning it prior to removing the self-adhesive release paper.

I guess I can cheat a bit on the edges since I always frame my prints after mounting them on the gator, but I usually get pretty close.

Patrick
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Home Mounting Substrates - Foamcore, Gatorboard, others?
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2017, 05:38:46 am »

I gave up on trying to cut my prints after mounting on gatorfoam.  Now I precisely cut the print to the same size as the gatorfoam and use framing weights to hold the print on the gatorfoam after aligning it prior to removing the self-adhesive release paper.

I guess I can cheat a bit on the edges since I always frame my prints after mounting them on the gator, but I usually get pretty close.

Patrick

Expanded plastics with mounted prints, if not too thick, can be cut with Stanley knives etc but not with a roll or boardcutter in my experience, cracks will appear. I prefer to use 2mm alu/ethyleen/alu composite plates like DiBond or when framed afterwards 2mm polystyreen sheets. Both cut on the boardcutter with the print already laminated. I use a 130cm wide hand driven laminator which works alright for the low volume I mount. The matte art papers I laminate first with a vacuum press to the boards made adhesive on the laminator, cut them and then again run them protected through the laminator as well to increase the bond. Thicker adhesive quality used for the more loose paper fibers then. 

After making the carrier sheets adhesive on the laminator the polystyreen and Dibond sheets are first cut about half an inch wider than the size needed.  I clamp it with a bar on a table edge and cut a groove through the adhesive layer + paper into one alu side, that along the bar. An extra bar is put at 3" from that bar and the plate is broken without warping both pieces, some swings and the other alu side is broken too. The edges are not that rough but not exhibition quality. Does not matter, the final cuts after the print is applied make the edges smooth. Larger prints get an expanded 10mm PVC sheet, sawed 4" smaller in both directions, glued behind the 2mm DiBond and not visible at the edges then.
 

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

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