Hasselblad H5 X

[synn]

It's funny how some people become "company funs"... It's really annoying too... It is supposed that photographers care about photography first... not for business arogance! Yet, some think of it as funs of a football team 

Yeah, like how some people who just can't stop talking about Leica and Sinar in every single thread. They sure act like the fAns of a football team.
Anyway, fans talk with emotions. My posts were filled with factual information. You can try to have a factual discussion to disprove them if you can, else I will just ignore the conversation in this thread from here on.
"He's a fanboi" is one of the lamest and oldest copouts in the history of the internet, used by people who don't have a real counter point to present.

[eronald]

Problems start when people become fans of a politician rather than a camera brand ... especially if this politician likes war.
I have my favourite colour pencil these days, it draws better than your colour pencil 

Edmund

BTW, I have no issue if J or anyone else is a "fan" — this place is like a sportsbar with lots of ex-team members present.

Edmund

[Theodoros]

Yeah, like how some people who just can't stop talking about Leica and Sinar in every single thread. They sure act like the fAns of a football team.
Anyway, fans talk with emotions. My posts were filled with factual information. You can try to have a factual discussion to disprove them if you can, else I will just ignore the conversation in this thread from here on.
"He's a fanboi" is one of the lamest and oldest copouts in the history of the internet, used by people who don't have a real counter point to present.

Now that you mentioned Leica & Sinar, aren't they the only group of companies worth talking about (in a positive way)? I mean Sinar makes backs for everybody no matter what camera one would use and has a series of tech & view cameras (again open to all backs) and Leica has invited (and actually encouraged) users of older lenses to keep using their glass! Compare that with P1's policy of refusing to support Rollei for backs and now (again) refusing all older back users... Not to mention that they do everything to their power as to convince people that there is an alternative to multishot....

Remember how Hasselblad's fall started? It wasn't when the "closed" the H3... It really happened when they stopped making the CF backs although the technology was the same as the H backs and thus costed them very little... They just refused to be a part of the rest of the photographic world and demanded people to use "all HB" if they ever wanted one of their products! In other words they refused the whole idea of modularity (the V system) that was the basis of their own success up to that point!  ....Same as P1 is doing now.

Lets all hope that after Leica will come up with the open MF platform that they need as to offer an "in house" solution for the Sinarbacks, P1 will "wake up"... otherwise I see their customers getting as frustrated as HB customers where in the past when they realize that they've being trapped (without ever being notified) in a system that does half things and is a financial disaster to keep it up to date...

[synn]

Now that you mentioned Leica & Sinar, aren't they the only group of companies worth talking about (in a positive way)? I mean Sinar makes backs for everybody no matter what camera one would use and has a series of tech & view cameras (again open to all backs) and Leica has invited (and actually encouraged) users of older lenses to keep using their glass! Compare that with P1's policy of refusing to support Rollei for backs and now (again) refusing all older back users... Not to mention that they do everything to their power as to convince people that there is an alternative to multishot....

This is an actual, productive post. Thank you.

As far as I understand, Sinar's backs are to be mainly used in a studio and are mostly used by people who use tech and view cameras (or systems such as the Fuji GX or Mamiya RZ). Phase and Leaf backs can be used on all of those systems without any restrictions. The bonus is that they work untethered too.

Speaking of lenses, the Leica allowing lenses from other manufacturers thing is a strawman argument as well. It is the only way to get moderately priced lenses for the S platform as an alternative to the stupidly high priced Leica lenses, which is why they are doing it. You forget that the M645 platform has several legacy lenses at 3 digit prices that are amazingly good even to this day, giving full AF. You don't need to buy a $1000 adapter to use them as well. I know, because I use several of them.

There was a post I made a while ago that compared the current day lens prices between the Phamiya and Leica platforms that demonstrated how the former is actually cheaper in every case.


I am not a multishot or repro expert, but I do not recollect any official literature from Phase or Leaf saying that their products are BETTER than multishot. Some lone voices claiming so does not equate to the official company stance. But the fact remains, Phase actively markets to cultural heritage institutions and they seem to be buyng the products. I a hazarding a guess that the quality of the files is one deciding factor as well.

Remember how Hasselblad's fall started? It wasn't when the "closed" the H3... It really happened when they stopped making the CF backs although the technology was the same as the H backs and thus costed them very little... They just refused to be a part of the rest of the photographic world and demanded people to use "all HB" if they ever wanted one of their products! In other words they refused the whole idea of modularity (the V system) that was the basis of their own success up to that point!  ....Same as P1 is doing now.

It's funny that you mention Hasselblad ending the CF line. Phase/ Leaf has never stopped making backs for the V mount and they are continuing to make them. Hasselbald is not making the CFV 50c or H series backs for the M645 platform (The most popular MF platform as of today) as we speak.

So what is this comparison aiming to achieve?

Let's examine the current market situation.

- A Phase/ Leaf back user can use the XF body (IQ3), the DF+, Contax, Hasselblad V, Hasselblad H, Mamiya RZ, Fuji GX, Every leading tech and view cam platform (IQ2, IQ1, Credo) and the Hy6 (Credo) Untethered

- A Hasselblad back user can use the H body (H) or the  Hasselblad V, Mamiya RZ, Fuji GX (CFV), Every leading tech and view cam platform (H and CFV) Untethered

- A Sinar back user can use the DF+, Contax, Hasselblad V, Hasselblad H, Mamiya RZ, Fuji GX, Every leading tech and view cam platform and the Hy6 Tethered

For a company that you seem to accuse of being the most closed, Phase/Leaf seems to be offering the users the most options for their back users.


I know that people like to quote selective truth here, especially when it comes to Phase One as there are several axes to be grinded against them. Go ahead, call me a fanboi again when the whole picture is presented in a factual fashion.

[Theodoros]

I kind of lost you here... Isn't this a conversation for the H5x and (as a consequence) for the XF as a (possible) alternative?  What has P1 back policy has to do with anything if most of them don't work on the XF but do work on the H-5X? We know P1's policy up to now, it's their newer policy that is the problem!

By the way... Sinar stopped making the E-motion (self contained) series of backs after HY-6 production was ceased (obviously because they where left without a platform to support them)... Their current backs are are all multishot capable because (obviously) that is where they have specialized on and where their major market is, it doesn't mean that they won't come up with self contained (or even hybrid like my CF-39MS is) once they have a new platform to replace the luck of the HY-6 or the "M" before it...

[synn]

I kind of lost you here... Isn't this a conversation for the H5x and (as a consequence) for the XF as a (possible) alternative? 

Nope. That's how the thread started, but then the conversation de-volved into how P1 is closed and everyone else is so open. My response is only to that point. Haven't seen anyone disprove anything I have said so far. I expect the axe grinders to fully ignore the facts and carry on spouting their tired old lines though.

We know P1's policy up to now, it's their newer policy that is the problem!

What I have listed in the previous post is P1's policy up until today. That makes them the manufacturer with the most options for their customers as of Oct 6, 2015. This is a fact, not an opinion.

It might change in the future and if it does, we can talk about it then.

By the way... Sinar stopped making the E-motion (self contained) series of backs after HY-6 production was ceased (obviously because they where left without a platform to support them)... Their current backs are are all multishot capable because (obviously) that is where they have specialized on and where their major market is, it doesn't mean that they won't come up with self contained (or even hybrid like my CF-39MS is) once they have a new platform to replace the luck of the HY-6 or the "M" before it...

I will believe it when I see it.
For now, it's just a pipe dream while Phase/ Leaf are shipping actual backs that work on several platforms untethered.

Again, fact, not opinion.

Anyway, this topic has run its course. I am moving on.

[eronald]

Jenoptik is the originator of the Multishot technique AFAIK. So it's not surprising they make MS backs. These are now sold under the Sinar brand.

I'm sure that in due course Jenoptik/Sinar will come up with a German solution that German cultural institutions can buy. As Germans probably now have 2/3 or so of the money in Europe and a stronger voice every day in standards matters,  that may keep the company's backs alive.But for the rest, frankly I think MF has suffered from a lack of innovation and there is little there to sell it to end-users.

It is new tech which breeds new tech usage. Look what Olympus has pulled out of its hat - a camera which can do MS, fits in a pocket and costs the price of a medium format lens cap. And btw, I was telling people on this forum a year ago that this could be done with the new in-camera IBIS stabilisers and nobody believed me.

Edmund

I kind of lost you here... Isn't this a conversation for the H5x and (as a consequence) for the XF as a (possible) alternative?  What has P1 back policy has to do with anything if most of them don't work on the XF but do work on the H-5X? We know P1's policy up to now, it's their newer policy that is the problem!

By the way... Sinar stopped making the E-motion (self contained) series of backs after HY-6 production was ceased (obviously because they where left without a platform to support them)... Their current backs are are all multishot capable because (obviously) that is where they have specialized on and where their major market is, it doesn't mean that they won't come up with self contained (or even hybrid like my CF-39MS is) once they have a new platform to replace the luck of the HY-6 or the "M" before it...