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Author Topic: Digital Large Format Advise for learning/ experimenting  (Read 4577 times)

alicgi

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Digital Large Format Advise for learning/ experimenting
« on: September 21, 2015, 11:32:59 am »

Hi Guys, I am new to this forum and have signed up as I want to get into the world of medium/large format cameras, however as we are now in the digital age, I would like to ask a few questions about using analog equipment with a digital back, everything I will do will be on the tripod, and the uses will be landscape and product photography, no moving people or anything that would require high iso or really fast shutter speeds, so speed docent really bother me, I would also like to tether to capture one so am leaning towards a phase back

My problem starts with the money, From doing some research my ideal "toy" would be something like the Linhof M679 with a selection of digital lenses and a phase one back, or something like an Alpa system, although I can only dream about these kind of setups,

So my initial thought are to buy a second hand 4x5 linhof or arca or similar, camera I see a few on eBay between £500 - £1000 , a second hand phase p25, again £500 - £1000 seem to be the going rate, and then the lenses, I could get a second hand analogue Rodenstock Apo Sironar for say between £300 - £800.

My main reason for considering this rather than just buying a hassleblad or phase one system, is I want to learn how to use a real view camera, the movements, tilts etc. And the feedback of digital would give me a much faster learning curve that processing film.

So a few questions about these components,

Camera; whats the difference between, i.e. a Linhof M679 which seems to be designed for digital backs and a camera that isn't? I know I will need an adapter for the back, I read rumours about it being impossible to focus etc, I don't understand why? Please tell me if I am missing something here?

Lenses; from my understanding this seems to come down to the resolution of the lens and the digital coating applied to stop from reflecting the sensor, and ghosting when shooting into light,
How much quality would I loose using a analogue lens, versus a digital, the price difference is huge! If anyone has any comparisons that would be excellent, lets say shooting on a 20mp back and a 40mp back?

I work in a retouching studio and am very used to working with files from the latest phase one backs 80mp plus stitches, on the latest alpa systems so I am very aware of how sharp and beautiful these files can be! How close can I get on a budget like this, does anyone have their own recommendations?

Thanks Guys!  :D
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Digital Large Format Advise for learning/ experimenting
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2015, 10:36:43 pm »

While the movements work on a 4x5 full movement camera, not all sensors can adapt to this.  Even the sensors that are designed to, I have noticed much less tolerance for increasing DOF when using a digital back.

The difference between the differnt 4x5's are mostly weight and size..... As long as you are comparing a yaw free movement 4x5.

I'm not sure what rumors you have read about. Its a very basic and simple system. lens in front space with bellows in between and the film or DB on the back. They are usually referred to as "Standards", so you have a front and rear standard. As long as you have the right size hole for the lens and aperture to lock onto, and the back standard has an adapter to your "film plane" of choice, thats it.

I say buy an A7RII and call it a day. ;-)
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torger

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Re: Digital Large Format Advise for learning/ experimenting
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2015, 03:31:42 am »

Very broadly speaking one can say that longer analog lenses works better than wider angle, but there are specific models that work better than others.

With 22 megapixels / 9um pixels the analog lenses are adequate most of the time.

It seems like you are going to do product photography in a studio? An analog system will then work quite fine, as you are using longer focal lengths and quite large and broad movements. If you're shooting wide angle architecture or landscape then you will have issues both with parallelism of the camera body and the lens quality.

If we look at studio cameras such as the M679 the main difference between an analog and a digital is that the digital has all movements geared, while most analog have some movements ungeared. I would also guess that during calibration of the body in the factory there are tighter tolerances on the digital. For product shots it does not matter that much though as the DoF will be quite short anyway and if the tilt/swing/focus differs a fraction from what you set won't matter for the end result in most cases (unlike when you focus a wide angle lens at infinity for a landscape scene)

You can find geared 4x5" cameras too though, such as a Sinar X.

An alternative to getting a second hand MFDB back and an old 4x5" would be to look into a Sony A7rII and mount it to one of the view cameras that have adapters for it.
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BobShaw

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Re: Digital Large Format Advise for learning/ experimenting
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2015, 04:37:23 am »

The problem with using any type of Dslr or 35mm camera is that the sensor is recessed plus they require an.adaptor which adds extra length to that distance. With a Canon setup for example it adds 75mm to the minimum focal length that you can have.

It would not be as bad with a mirror less camera but you are losing out on sensor size which increases the quality of the lens required.

A medium format back has the big sensor straight on the faceplate.

I doubt think there is any advantage of 679 over 4x5 other than size, and they are much more expensive.
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alicgi

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Re: Digital Large Format Advise for learning/ experimenting
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2015, 07:52:18 am »

Hi Guys thanks for the advise! makes a lot of sense!
Sorry about my price on the phase, I agree yes they are more between 1000k - 2500k, although there is one going on eBay with a Blad h2d body for £1600, so sell the body and you could cut the cost a little more or keep it and have a Blad system to play with also ;)

I think the reason for not going for a Sony adaptation thing is the pure modularity of the system, keeping it simple, and the larger sensor size, also the ability to rent a bigger back if needed! And knowing how to use it straight away, I think that once you own a good digital back you have a realm of possibility's regards to different body's etc.
Also a huge pair of bellows hanging of the end of a tiny sony looks a bit strange to me ;)

The one thing I'm not fully understanding is the loss of movement when using a digital back, although this is down to my own ignorance! Also why don't wide angle lenses work as well as the longer ones?
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Theodoros

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Re: Digital Large Format Advise for learning/ experimenting
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2015, 08:25:59 am »

Hi Guys thanks for the advise! makes a lot of sense!
Sorry about my price on the phase, I agree yes they are more between 1000k - 2500k, although there is one going on eBay with a Blad h2d body for £1600, so sell the body and you could cut the cost a little more or keep it and have a Blad system to play with also ;)

I think the reason for not going for a Sony adaptation thing is the pure modularity of the system, keeping it simple, and the larger sensor size, also the ability to rent a bigger back if needed! And knowing how to use it straight away, I think that once you own a good digital back you have a realm of possibility's regards to different body's etc.
Also a huge pair of bellows hanging of the end of a tiny sony looks a bit strange to me ;)

The one thing I'm not fully understanding is the loss of movement when using a digital back, although this is down to my own ignorance! Also why don't wide angle lenses work as well as the longer ones?

"LF" as far as image area size is concerned, has no meaning with digital since all image areas (but scanning backs) are of MF size or smaller... In most cases, some people use the term LF in order to imply that they will use a view or a tech camera... My suggestion, (if the case is to use movements with your photography) is to go with a Fuji GX680 for the moment and wait until LV with MFDBs will develop further so that it can replace the difficult framing and DOF control that older view cameras have... By then, you'll be able to advance your view camera knowledge using the GX680's reflex viewfinder as to replace the LV that a modern MFDB will offer, or just use a FF mirrorless (like a Sony) instead of an MFDB and just use a modern view camera (like the Cambo Actus) that will offer you all the movements you'll ever want (with more accuracy that the Fuji too)...  ;)
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torger

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Re: Digital Large Format Advise for learning/ experimenting
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2015, 10:19:09 am »

The one thing I'm not fully understanding is the loss of movement when using a digital back, although this is down to my own ignorance! Also why don't wide angle lenses work as well as the longer ones?

Wide angle lenses are harder to make sharp, which makes differences between analog/digital show more. You also get more color cast issues, but for the 9um backs it's easily corrected with a LCC card.

There's also the issue with parallelism in the body which become more and more evident the shorter focal length you have. Analog 4x5" are typically less rigid and have wider tolerances making causing more residual tilt/swing when left at the zero position, which can typically be seen as one side of the image being sharper than the other when focusing a wide angle at infinity.
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alicgi

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Re: Digital Large Format Advise for learning/ experimenting
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2015, 08:16:37 pm »

I have no interest in arguing the quality of a product somebody else is selling on eBay, it could be 10 out of 10, it could be 0, we all make our own minds up on second hand purchases, I'm a big boy. if i fancied it, I wouldn't have told anyone ;)

Seems like nobody wants people to buy medium format backs, unless they have £30k plus, must be scared of the competition ;)

I don't want an a7r, i already own one, i'm looking for a view/tech camera that i can mount a digital back on, which works reliably and how it should, and would like to know the downsides of using film based equipment in this kind of digital workflow,
I am under no illusion that medium format isn't an expensive game, I'm also under no illusion thinking that the sony a7r is up to the task of a good medium format back, i work with the files day after day, there is no comparison!

The sony mirrorless cams might be amazing, but personally id rather own a lower end phase for £3000, if i need the quality of a iq280 or whatever i could just rent one for 3/400 a day, until the investment of buying one becomes viable.

I'd rather get advice on the equipment in front of the sensor :) presuming it will be used on a digital back,
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torger

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Re: Digital Large Format Advise for learning/ experimenting
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2015, 04:02:11 am »

The sony mirrorless cams might be amazing, but personally id rather own a lower end phase for £3000, if i need the quality of a iq280 or whatever i could just rent one for 3/400 a day, until the investment of buying one becomes viable.

If you plan to have a low end back and then rent a high end back from time to time you need a camera system that supports the high end back. Again for product photography with longer lenses you can get away with cheaper gear, while on the wide end you may need Rodenstock Digarons for the IQ280, at least if you want to shift anything.

Regarding on the skepticism of cheaper medium format backs this is due to the competition from 135. Many are like crazy about dynamic range and the older backs are 1-2 stops behind what the best CMOS does today. This is no problem for product and studio photography, but can be a problem in say landscape photography. The older backs are a little behind in pretty much every other aspect too, but in terms of absolute image quality you still get good results. Many can't really accept that their MF gear is behind other's 135 gear and thus needs to upgrade to the latest and greatest all the time, to keep the distance.

If you get an older MF back with the purpose to get better image quality than the best 135 systems you'll end up disappointed sooner or later, at least if you make direct comparisons (the best way to stay satisfied is to never compare, eg the "16 bit files" where "several stops" better until someone actually compared side by side, MF is full of such examples where image quality superiority is exaggerated).

There may be other reasons though. Older MF backs are so "cheap" these days that you can get one just for fun, and having a cheap P1 back for daily use (get used to the workflow etc) and swap in a rented high end P1 for specific jobs sounds like a really good idea, but then I think you should spend a bit more on the camera and lenses.

I have an H4D-50 mounted to a Linhof Techno (with external battery). My reason is to be able to use the Techno and the Schneider Digitar lens range including the wides to their full potential. An A7r / Actus or similar solution is not an option for me due to poor wide angle performance.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 04:06:08 am by torger »
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Paul2660

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Re: Digital Large Format Advise for learning/ experimenting
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2015, 10:07:57 am »

Hi Guys thanks for the advise! makes a lot of sense!
Sorry about my price on the phase, I agree yes they are more between 1000k - 2500k, although there is one going on eBay with a Blad h2d body for £1600, so sell the body and you could cut the cost a little more or keep it and have a Blad system to play with also ;)

I think the reason for not going for a Sony adaptation thing is the pure modularity of the system, keeping it simple, and the larger sensor size, also the ability to rent a bigger back if needed! And knowing how to use it straight away, I think that once you own a good digital back you have a realm of possibility's regards to different body's etc.
Also a huge pair of bellows hanging of the end of a tiny sony looks a bit strange to me ;)

The one thing I'm not fully understanding is the loss of movement when using a digital back, although this is down to my own ignorance! Also why don't wide angle lenses work as well as the longer ones?

Wides have issues with the smaller pixel pitch of the 60MP and 80MP backs, if you are not headed to that size back, odds are you will be fine. 
Wides, may have smaller image circles, example 23HR, 28HR both are only 70mm IC's the 32mm HR-W has 90mm as does the Schneider 35XL, the Schneider 43XL is around 110mm I believe.
You may be limited to movements just due to the smaller IC.

The more modern line from Rodenstock, say HR and HR-W and now HR-SW were designed to meet the requirements of the 60MP backs, and later on the 80MP backs. 

Ghosting, wish I had better news for you, but you can suffer from ghosting from all the HR, and HR-W lenses, at least I have.  The 23mm is very prone to a harsh flare more than ghosting (some folks report better results with newer versions of this lens), the 32mm HR-W can flare, but not quite as bad as the 28mm.  The ghosting with the Rodenstocks is strange as you can get even on an overcast day, but I find the 90mm HR to be more problematic with ghosting. 

Best solution is use a hood on these optics, and depending on your lens, options are different, but there are many.

The 23mm, 28mm and even 32mm (less so) all will benefit from the Rodenstock matched CF.  The 32mm seems to need it more in low light.  The Schneider 35 and 43 both need the CF, the 35mm even for center shots, the 43 more for shifts.

I realize these are mainly digital lenses and thus you might not be a interested, but the prices seem to be coming down even on these, especially used.  If you stay with a Linfolf, you should be able to purchase any of these lenses in R, Alpa or Cambo mount, remove the mount and just add the standard lens board. 

Paul
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Re: Digital Large Format Advise for learning/ experimenting
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2015, 10:10:35 am »

I was thinking of the same thing too, but have finally decided to go with a Cambo Actus DB for all the reasons people have stated here.
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Theodoros

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Re: Digital Large Format Advise for learning/ experimenting
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2015, 10:39:45 am »


Seems like nobody wants people to buy medium format backs, unless they have £30k plus, must be scared of the competition ;)

Αctually 9μm pixel pitch old (and cheap) backs are among the best one can have to use on a view camera as far as IQ with movements is concerned... especially with extreme movements... For use on a view camera, I would strongly suggest an Imacon 132 or a Hasselblad CF-22 over a P-25 or P-25+, not because they are cheaper, rather because they don't need an "one shot" to trigger them and because they offer interchangeable mounting plates (and thus shimming correction ability)... I still suggest a GX-680 to start with though...
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Ken R

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Re: Digital Large Format Advise for learning/ experimenting
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2015, 11:50:58 am »

I have no interest in arguing the quality of a product somebody else is selling on eBay, it could be 10 out of 10, it could be 0, we all make our own minds up on second hand purchases, I'm a big boy. if i fancied it, I wouldn't have told anyone ;)

Seems like nobody wants people to buy medium format backs, unless they have £30k plus, must be scared of the competition ;)

I don't want an a7r, i already own one, i'm looking for a view/tech camera that i can mount a digital back on, which works reliably and how it should, and would like to know the downsides of using film based equipment in this kind of digital workflow,
I am under no illusion that medium format isn't an expensive game, I'm also under no illusion thinking that the sony a7r is up to the task of a good medium format back, i work with the files day after day, there is no comparison!

The sony mirrorless cams might be amazing, but personally id rather own a lower end phase for £3000, if i need the quality of a iq280 or whatever i could just rent one for 3/400 a day, until the investment of buying one becomes viable.

I'd rather get advice on the equipment in front of the sensor :) presuming it will be used on a digital back,

The "lower end" Phase back are still superb in regards to image quality (at or near base iso) and offer a very nice look.

Like mentioned most issues regarding digital backs and camera / lenses occur in the wide angle range. Let's say 60mm focal length and below. With those low focal lengths you need much more precise alignment and focusing precision. This is imperative not only to attain consistently good image quality and up to infinity focus but because the rear lens element will be quite close to the sensor with those focal lengths, it really helps prevent accidental damage to the back/sensor.

With longer focal lengths this is less of an issue but you still need good alignment.

Other issues for choosing one camera body over another.

1- Focusing: Since the older backs do not have live view you have really only two options to focus, trial and error and/or using a ground glass (which requires the part to be well aligned and of course dismounting and mounting the back). With some of the better systems (like Alpa, Cambo and Arca) you get a focusing scale on the lens (or in the case of the Arca in the body) so it is much easier to get the right focus quickly with just a distance measurement. Again, the better tech systems offer a much higher degree of ease and consistency in focusing.

2- Movements: Most systems offer more movements than most lens / sensor combinations allow but still there are some significant differences specially when you get into the more compact tech camera bodies and systems.

So generally the back choice (withing the older Phase backs) is not a huge deal since most will work in a similar way (some like the P45+ do offer extreme long exposure capability) but the System / Lens choice is a big deal specially if you plan on later upgrading your back.
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alicgi

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Re: Digital Large Format Advise for learning/ experimenting
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2015, 05:39:28 pm »

Guys this advice is invaluable! Thank you, other than the usual forum user that wants to pick fault with the slightest mistakes in questions!
Other than one person, the advise and time you guys have put into these responses is superb! Hit it spot on!
The hard decision now is what to choose! Thanks so much :)
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Digital Large Format Advise for learning/ experimenting
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2015, 09:01:12 pm »

While torger is very right, even with 9um size pixel sensors I havefound the HD or the Digi lenes make a large difference in sharpness.

I have a 210 Maco, a old 300 macro and a HD 180 macro, and no question the 180 is sharper. New it is $3-4K, but seen them used around $2K

Just get a Sinar P or P2 or even F...X any of those are solid workhorses that have not let me down in over a decade.

I too am looking at the Sony and thinkin about it to upgrade from a 22mpixel mf digital back....And you said you work with such files daily vs the MF files.

Please elaborate on this as I know the difference of them from my Canon 5Dm2 to the PhaseOne P25.....
Almost doubling the pixel and getting the Sony right now for me is very tempting. But updating the back is not a big upgrade in workflow unless getting a touchscreen back that will help shooting smoother and faster.
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alicgi

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Re: Digital Large Format Advise for learning/ experimenting
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2015, 05:25:05 am »

Hi Phil,
Thanks for this! Yes also part of this plan would be the longevity of the lenses! :) Buying quality glass that would last practically a lifetime is much more appealing to me that having to change setup every 5 years because they change the mount or theres another camera from a different brand etc,

When i was talking about using the files daily, most of the jobs we get now are coming from guys with alpa systems latest lenses and iq280 backs, the whole hog basically! 3x3 stitches too, creating epic sized files,
Now what can I say about these files, basically when shot well, perfect! when not shot well still very very good! When viewing in photoshop at 100% I see zero noise and perfect focus, usually landscape stuff for cars, so 10 times out of 10 everything needs to be perfectly sharp, and it is,
you open the files for retouch and the detail never fails to astonish,
Comparing this to opening a sony a7r file, yes they are nice and technology has increased huge amounts, but there is usually noise at 100%, and just not as sharp, It's a little depressing after working on the phase files! This could well be down to poor photography, but i think not,

Obviously i'm talking from a retouchers perspective, so looking at the pictures and detail for a lot longer and in a lot greater detail than any end user may, but this is important for me! :) and i am sure it is too most image pro's and enthusiasts too, 'its not always just about the end result to me'

As for the lower end backs, not too sure as haven't used the files, but if I get the same feeling at 100% viewing as i do on the latest backs, I will be very pleased! Its all about the pixels at 100% I obviously understand I won't be getting 80mp images from the older backs, and the resolution might be whats giving such a wow factor, but also being able to purchase a lower end back with the opportunity to swap it for a borrowed or rented back is why i don't want to go down the sony route,
Building a system this way reassures me that whatever happens unless they start making MF backs triangular shaped  :o my kit will always hold up,
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Digital Large Format Advise for learning/ experimenting
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2015, 05:44:22 am »

Ah yes. Have you seen the multi shots from a Sinar back?
Take a look at those of some nice product work. The detail is amazing.  I think the noise in the smaller format files is bad capture, or forced to use such setting for the situation.. But I think I know what you mean. With MF dB when you push pixels there is a lot to move around and the file doesn't fall apart quick when you tweak and change things, as they would on smaller sensor files.
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Zac Henderson

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Re: Digital Large Format Advise for learning/ experimenting
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2015, 02:01:24 pm »

I wrote an article a couple of months ago on this very topic, though it was more for fun than anything else. I slapped an IQ 260 on a wooden field camera and went up into the Rockies for some fun.

Digital Back and Wooden Field Cameras

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