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Author Topic: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing  (Read 32783 times)

AlterEgo

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #60 on: September 23, 2015, 12:00:22 am »

It's not as clear to me how raw conversion works in ACR
in Adobe workflow demosaicking happens before WB (linear DNG are demosaicked and still in camera's "color space" - there is no difference in ACR/LR output from a native raw vs from a linear DNG produced by the same version of ACR/LR) and WB is actually a somewhat part of a color transform (the matrix part of it)... in RPP a simple per channel multiplication happens before demosaicking, but also exposure correction & curves (gamma, L*, "film", whatever) are applied before demosaicking as well... = quite different approach.
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fredjeang2

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #61 on: September 23, 2015, 12:02:20 am »

...but in Resolve, with Red Raw footage, for example, white balance in the Raw settings does something more than just setting a white point. It is part of the Red SDK, and is, as I understand it, part of the camera's color science. If WB is right for the raw conversion stage, the RGB image that gets produced out is much easier to grade with Resolve's RGB tools.
Indeed. In scratch too, in Fusion also and for some imputs I read in Red forum from the colorists gurus,
In Baselight too.
Red is "post-prod" friendly. The difficulty comes more IMO with
prores logC.
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D Fuller

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #62 on: September 23, 2015, 12:16:53 am »

Indeed. In scratch too, in Fusion also and for some imputs I read in Red forum from the colorists gurus,
In Baselight too.
Red is "post-prod" friendly. The difficulty comes more IMO with
prores logC.
For prores log files, it is really the cinematographer's responsibility the get white balance right. The camera is doing the demosaic, so you don't get to have a say in it.

In that case (which happens very seldom for me, because I mostly grade only my own stuff) if the WB needs tweaking, I'll usually start the node tree with a node that I use to set the white point, the black point and a usually gray point. I then copy that node to all of the shots from that scene, so it becomes a standard starting point--sort of like a white balance.
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D Fuller

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #63 on: September 23, 2015, 12:23:11 am »

in Adobe workflow demosaicking happens before WB (linear DNG are demosaicked and still in camera's "color space" - there is no difference in ACR/LR output from a native raw vs from a linear DNG produced by the same version of ACR/LR) and WB is actually a somewhat part of a color transform (the matrix part of it)... in RPP a simple per channel multiplication happens before demosaicking, but also exposure correction & curves (gamma, L*, "film", whatever) are applied before demosaicking as well... = quite different approach.
I have some questions I've wanted to ask about the nature of raw files from still cameras that I suspect you might be able to answer. I'm too tired now, but I'll come back to you on that tomorrow. 

BTW... Are you the author of RPP?

DAF
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Morgan_Moore

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #64 on: September 23, 2015, 07:55:29 am »


So this is the first to put, and then all the others would come before it, so it becomes the last node just before conform. That's correct?

LUTs are destructive and clip therefore need to be the last node.

My nodes in resolve go like this..

Basic Correction. (yes colour balance here)
Secondaries - select the sky and make it darker
Artistic Look (desat, make everything rust colour!)
LUT

Here if you take time to understand and ignore that im working from raw (it is the same with any codec in) you will see

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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

fredjeang2

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #65 on: September 23, 2015, 08:03:39 am »

Yes, I saw your video. But it seems that everything is destructive apart from metadatas.
Maybe too much mystic on raw

Here I join an image I just created to resume. Is that correct?
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Morgan_Moore

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #66 on: September 23, 2015, 08:13:16 am »

Sure - but Im not building cameras.. just using what I have.

Clearly raw is IMO superior and the WB doesnt matter.

(actually in raw the wb can matter of the scene.. eg shooting under tungsten can lead to noise in blue as that channel needs to be amplified in post!)

in the real world a 444 codec (I tested SR on the F5) is strong enough for you to shoot under tungsten with the camera set a t 5500 and correct well.

A log 10bit camera like the FS7 has three settings 3200, 4500 and 5500, if you get the right one you are golden.

A DSLR 4-2-0 needs near perfect in camera shooting.

So you take your choice..

2TB per hour* and $50g camera - no WB correction needed
.3 TB per hour and $10g camera - choose one of three levels
.05 tb per hour and $1g camera - get it nailed or die.

IMO the mid point is the winner!

*all these figures are a guess - but in the right park?

S


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bcooter

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #67 on: September 23, 2015, 09:21:15 am »


2TB per hour* and $50g camera - no WB correction needed
.3 TB per hour and $10g camera - choose one of three levels
.05 tb per hour and $1g camera - get it nailed or die.



I agree with morgan on most of what he says, though not his price numbers.



If you ask 10 people their workflow you'll get 10 answers. (regardless of medium or genre)

So much depends on how you work, light and the subject as there is no one answer.

A very good field monitor will tell you as much as scopes, balancing using lighting, will obviously give me a more workable file.

Due to time and budget I'm not surprised that so many times people get caught out on exposure, but I am amazed that people think raw or a flat log will fix anything.

As Morgan says, working tungsten and trying to get to a cool look will make the blue channel go nuts on most cameras.

I know my Reds wouldn't do blue at 1200 ASA when I started with them, though Cinex has improved and now I can get there without too much noticeable noise, or smoothing.

I do know the REDs like warm more than cool, if pushed into low light scenes.

If I see a trailer like the Martian that is very, very warm I know it's probably shot on a RED (though I think the decision of this movie was 3d), though an expert color team can do about anything if it's shot within range.

Prior to the recession I had a amazing color team in Dallas that was in a large 4 story building.  Today . . . they're housed in a 6 room office suite, so the diy system of coloring has taken over, though I doubt seriously if the thousands of people running free resolve own a calibrated broadcast monitor.

I know of one young production company that thinks the c-log, or the technicolor log for Canons is actually film color and once they apply it to their camera, they're done.

Seriously.    Then I had a client say man that's a cool look so real and desaturated.  (shoot me please).

Personally I loathe flat logs in these little 8 bit cameras.  It all looks washed out, hell to focus, can't see the highlights properly and are a recipe for failure.

In regards to asa, all I can say is test.    I keep my REDs at 800 sometimes go to 1000 or 1200 in a pinch.

I never go to 400 absolutely never, ever, ever go to 200.

If working fast, (without time to check the dit station) I try to have a field monitor and first make it match my evf, then just bump the contrast on the field monitor because if I can keep it in that range I'm safe.

If working ultra fast, I just try to be safe and that's why I like to start with a evf rather than a screen that changes from the angle you view at.

IMO

BC

P.S.  But when you think about it few still photographers run broadcast quality, high gamut calibrated monitors.  They set down at their Imac and start working a still out of lightroom or ACR.

If they do it well, they learn two things.  1.  NO two screens ever match, so obviously when you ship NO 1000 screens are going to get close.  2.  Do what works for you and your client and don't worry about it unless you're shooting for the theatre then that's a whole different animal.

« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 09:30:36 am by bcooter »
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fredjeang2

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #68 on: September 23, 2015, 09:30:52 am »

I never go to 400 absolutely never, ever, ever go to 200.



But why? That's what is confusing to me.

If you shoot 200 and then in Cinex changed the metas to 800, isn't that the same as if you shooted 800 from capture?

This is precisely the point I don't get clear.
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bcooter

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #69 on: September 23, 2015, 09:34:54 am »

But why? That's what is confusing to me.

If you shoot 200 and then in Cinex changed the metas to 800, isn't that the same as if you shooted 800 from capture?

This is precisely the point I don't get clear.

I don't either, but unlike you Fred (and I mean this in a nice way) I don't care.

Roger Deakins works at 800 on the Arri sometimes at 1200 in a pinch so if it works for him, it will work for me.

I believe in the theory of the uncluttered mind.

Right now I have a client that wants an edit repurposed into two very unique sizes,   3 to 1 and 3 to 3.3.

It's for huge displays around uhd and of course everything will have to be moved around to fit these dimensions, but the specs of the display requirements are equally important.

Trying talking Codecs, bitrates, gamma, Khz, to someone who is just passing along information.

IMO

BC
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AlterEgo

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #70 on: September 23, 2015, 09:42:28 am »

BTW... Are you the author of RPP?

I am not - I just follow the http://raw-rpp.livejournal.com

but Iliah Borg who participates in RPP project along it its original creator, A. Tverdokhleb,  is actually a member here.
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fredjeang2

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #71 on: September 23, 2015, 09:46:29 am »

... but unlike you Fred (and I mean this in a nice way) I don't care.



Lol!
More of my graphics. 8)
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bcooter

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #72 on: September 23, 2015, 10:54:14 am »

Lol!
More of my graphics. 8)

Fred,

Your brain is going to explode.

IMO

BC
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smthopr

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #73 on: September 23, 2015, 12:51:19 pm »

re: grading with Log - REC709 LUT

I have found it best to put the LUT in the middle of the grading stack of instructions.

Below the LUT, you are working in LOG space, on the LOG curve itself.  Above the LUT, you are working with REC709 footage, in the usual "video" techniques.  All data below the LUT is recoverable by lowering/raising the gain/black level below the LUT.  If you're working with ARRI LogC, and using an ARRI LUT, there are color matrix conversions in the LUT that are very difficult to duplicate using the usual Lift, gamma, gain controls.  If you  want the "Alexa" look, use the LUT.  But not at the end, in the middle of the grade.

If you are grading on a REC709 calibrated display, there will be no need for a display LUT at the end of the chain.
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fredjeang2

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #74 on: September 23, 2015, 02:14:57 pm »

re: grading with Log - REC709 LUT

I have found it best to put the LUT in the middle of the grading stack of instructions.

Below the LUT, you are working in LOG space, on the LOG curve itself.  Above the LUT, you are working with REC709 footage, in the usual "video" techniques.  All data below the LUT is recoverable by lowering/raising the gain/black level below the LUT.  If you're working with ARRI LogC, and using an ARRI LUT, there are color matrix conversions in the LUT that are very difficult to duplicate using the usual Lift, gamma, gain controls.  If you  want the "Alexa" look, use the LUT.  But not at the end, in the middle of the grade.

If you are grading on a REC709 calibrated display, there will be no need for a display LUT at the end of the chain.
Nice to read you Bruce.

You mean this 16bit LUT for ex: AlexaV3_K1S1_LogC2Video_rec709 ?

I understand why you say it
But when you say in the middle, it is very vague...what should then come first and after? The middle is a bit everything and nothing.
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smthopr

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #75 on: September 23, 2015, 06:59:09 pm »

Nice to read you Bruce.

You mean this 16bit LUT for ex: AlexaV3_K1S1_LogC2Video_rec709 ?

I understand why you say it
But when you say in the middle, it is very vague...what should then come first and after? The middle is a bit everything and nothing.

Yes like that LUT. K1S1 has a strong toe and shoulder curve. K2S2 has a gentler curve and less contrast etc.

The grading instructions before or under the LUT work directly on the image in log space, as if it was a film negative inverted.  When you apply an offset command (moving the entire image the same amount) it's like changing the exposure when printing a film negative to paper. It very much mimics changing the iris on the camera while viewing through through a REC709 LUT to a monitor.

Above or after the LUT it's like working on normal video grading. All controls work as expected.

To understand what's going on try turning the LUT on and off and watching the scopes as you play with the controls.  Hope this is clear and helpful!
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fredjeang2

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #76 on: September 24, 2015, 02:27:54 am »


 Hope this is clear and helpful!

Totaly helpful ! Thanks Bruce.
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smthopr

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #77 on: September 24, 2015, 11:39:55 am »

Totaly helpful ! Thanks Bruce.

I should also add that there is a color matrix conversion in the Arri LUT also  (though you can create one in the Arri LUT creator webpage without it). Compare the image that you get using the Arri LUT with one you de-log using a luminance curve.  You can match the contrast, but I doubt you'll be able to match the color.

And, lastly, the K2S2-REC709 LUT is the same as the REC709 monitor output on the Alexa cameras that you would see in the field.  So, if you want to start with what your camera looked like on set, use the K2S2 LUT (assuming you didn't have a LUT box and custom LUT for your display in the field)
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fredjeang2

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #78 on: September 24, 2015, 12:37:06 pm »

I prefer the K2S than the 1, at least more easy for me.

After your post, I started to read on placing the Lut node not
In the end but in the middle.
Quite interesting readings I must say.

Although everyone has its own workflow, I sort of made a %,
And among experienced colorists, when it comes to log material
I would say that a big 80% do what you suggested.
For some reasons.
It's too early for me to picture at that stage all the benefits
Of such approach (apart the fact that what's below is recoverable)
because I still lack experience on these
Techniques but I will follow the advice.

Now regarding Arriraw (and that could be a question for Red also)
I would use the converter to nail WB and exposure and very fast
Do a convertion because the raw workflow is very heavy.
Even with my BM camera. And to be really honest, I don't shoot
Raw anymore but just prores HQ.
Curiously, Scratch does not slowdown my workflow while
The ARC is a mess (and I checked the cpu option). Weired.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2015, 12:50:41 pm by fredjeang2 »
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bcooter

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Re: Min. workstation for 4K 10bit composing
« Reply #79 on: September 25, 2015, 07:55:29 am »

Back to the OP's question on equipment.

Today, used 2010 12 core silver macpros and selling for more than new mid level mac pros.

I think we all know why.

IMO

BC
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