Canon announces 120MP SLR, 8K (35Mp) 60fps cine cam.

[torger]

Those tests always show crazy post-processed pushed shadows.

I think the DR thing is a little silly, to some it seems like it's the only metric that matters. I think that's more about fanboyism than actual broad photographic needs. That is if you like Sony and don't like Canon, then all of a sudden DR is super-duper-important. We have all seen how the DR got super-duper-important in this forum when Nikon D800 showed better performance than Dalsa-based digital backs. Sure there are special situations where it is a serious advantage, but I think most users actually care more about where the buttons sit, how it feels in the hand and how effective it feels to shoot, than how noisy the shadows are when you push them hard. And indeed I also think resolving power can be more selling than the extra stop in DR.

With 120MP and a high speed crop mode, huge flexibility in wild life for example, where you shoot higher ISO too. For studio photography you light the scene well and don't need to push shadows, the extra range you get is 100% meaningless. That is for the main MFD-style pro use you don't need more, but having the resolving power to make those billboards can be pretty attractive.

For tonemapped landscapes it has some impact though, but I don't think it's an important enough genre for the camera to be a fiasco if they can't compete with Sony, which they most likely will not be able to do.

[Paul2660]

Those tests always show crazy post-processed pushed shadows.

I think the DR thing is a little silly, to some it seems like it's the only metric that matters. I think that's more about fanboyism than actual broad photographic needs. That is if you like Sony and don't like Canon, then all of a sudden DR is super-duper-important. We have all seen how the DR got super-duper-important in this forum when Nikon D800 showed better performance than Dalsa-based digital backs. Sure there are special situations where it is a serious advantage, but I think most users actually care more about where the buttons sit, how it feels in the hand and how effective it feels to shoot, than how noisy the shadows are when you push them hard. And indeed I also think resolving power can be more selling than the extra stop in DR.

With 120MP and a high speed crop mode, huge flexibility in wild life for example, where you shoot higher ISO too. For studio photography you light the scene well and don't need to push shadows, the extra range you get is 100% meaningless. That is for the main MFD-style pro use you don't need more, but having the resolving power to make those billboards can be pretty attractive.

For tonemapped landscapes it has some impact though, but I don't think it's an important enough genre for the camera to be a fiasco if they can't compete with Sony, which they most likely will not be able to do.

The DR issue to me is real.  For anyone who large prints it should be also.  Canon, simply stated, just can't capture the same results, at base iso in one exposure.  I see it all the time with files taken, from the 5D MIII, MII, 6D and of course 1ds MKII.  I feel you do gain a specific amount of high iso advantage with Canon, but that's not where I tend to shoot.  Also except for the 6D, I find that Canon noise in shadows is very destructive, full of red blue banding.  So bracketing is a requirement if you want a full range in your shot.  I prefer to see life in shadows, not a pure black.  It's an individual style.  I would prefer not to bracket just my style.  (However I am finding a lot of luck with older Canon shots with the new LR HDR merge). The DR advantage was enough for me back in 2012 to quickly make the move to Nikon, however Nikon IMO did not get it totally correct till the D810. 

As for 120MP in a 35mm chip, all I can say is good luck with that.  Canon has yet to prove much with their current 35mm lineup besides the 50MP cameras, which do seem to show a considerable improvement.  I don't feel Nikon or Canon or anyone current has a range of glass that could resolve to this size pixel in a 120MP or 250MP chip anyway.  And I really can't see such a chip being any type of advantage to higher iso, it anything a hindrance as the pixels will be extremely dense, and not lending to a low light environment.  The current leader in high iso seems to be 12MP in the Sony A7r, due to mainly much larger pixels thus better low light capture.

Paul

[AlterEgo]

I don't feel Nikon or Canon or anyone current has a range of glass that could resolve to this size pixel in a 120MP or 250MP chip anyway.  

now you can mount FF lenses that on 20mp m43 ( that is 80mp density ) and see if that resolves... now you might argue about the borders, but center alone is important for quite some applications... and you also miss the fact that having oversampling is good - you can have 4->1 binning with full color and still get 30mp or 60mp

[kers]

If Canon releases a 120MP camera it also has to renew (again) most of its lenses. I see in practice some of my lenses can do over 100MP in the central area but for 100MP in the corners we need Otus type of lenses.
Also depth of field will show that this 120MP will be reached only in a very shallow area, especially when this is only reached @ F2,8-F4… Diffraction will kick in @ f5.6  probably …
We need a very accurate autofocus as well…
Ergo… i do not see much improvement, apart from downsampling the bayer pattern and lack of moiré.

[Theodoros]

The announcement is here. Goodbye MF, I don't think Sony will have time to put out updated MF sensors anymore, they are going to be locked into a full speed race with Canon, where 35mm sensors would be outresolving the last generation MF.

Edmund

I think that Leica will answer with a 37.5mp 45x30 sensor...

[Rainer SLP]

All mentioned above is peanuts and waste of time discussing about it

Look here http://tinyurl.com/who-is-Canon-Nikon-PhaseOne

[Theodoros]

All mentioned above is peanuts and waste of time discussing about it

Look here http://tinyurl.com/who-is-Canon-Nikon-PhaseOne

It's CCD too.... 

[DucatiTerminator]

It's CCD too.... 

<--- Awaiting the posts arguing that the D810/A7RII with Sony CMOS would have given them superior DR at a fraction of the cost, LOL.

[Theodoros]

<--- Awaiting the posts arguing that the D810/A7RII with Sony CMOS would have given them superior DR at a fraction of the cost, LOL.

...me too!!!  Goes with the thread!

[BernardLanguillier]

I just don't get why they didn't use a D810a/a7rII technology for this telescope, it would have been much cheaper with much better DR.

 

Cheers,
Bernard

[drevil]

excuse me, did anybody miss the news?

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/9255490800/canon-turbo-boosts-the-pixel-race-with-250-million-pixel-aps-h-sensor

[hjulenissen]

How many of the "leaks" on the web are actually well-thought-out marketing? Do you really think that a company like Apple cannot keep their production lines sealed off prior to iPhone release (or at least force their workers to not carry cameras)? I think that leaks are a way of "announcing without announcing". I.e. test out customer response, keep customers loyal, while being able to miss targets without loosing face.

Now, actually announcing products early, that is another thing. To me, that seems like underdog behaviour. If you have a hard time competing, you need to throw in promises of future stuff to keep competitors back.

Why would Canon say that "soon(tm), we will have best-in-class resolution DSLRs", when they just released a "best-in-class resolution DSLR"? Beats me. If people really want more megapixels in 24x36mm, the 5Ds/R is the obvious current solution, noone else can compete. By saying that they will bump that sensel count by >2x within one product development span (?? years), they are basically saying to some potential customers "please don't buy our 5DsR now, we will do a lot better in a couple of years". That seems like a strange message?

Or is this a message about how committed they are to high-resolution usage of the EF line? "Buy the 5DsR now, buy a bunch of mk2 lenses and in a few years things will only get better"?

As a Canon user, I think it is great that they feel competitive pressure from Sony & friends. I'd rather have 5 manufacturers fighting vigorously over my money than one monopoly getting complacent.

-h

[Chris Livsey]

It's CCD too.... 

10 microns: The size of each pixel.

And fat pixels

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I would agree that more megapixels may be a good thing. I have a Sony A7r now and I don't think the pixels are small enough to avoid aliasing, even with less than excellent lenses.

On the DR issue, it doesn't matter that much. Increasing MP will reduce DR, especially at the actual pixel level. But that reduction is minor and there are some advances, even at Canon. I very much doubt that Canon would release a product that would dissatisfy their customers.

Just to say, what we would need are lens sensor combos that look awfully soft at at actual pixels but make beutiful prints.

Best regards
Erik

I think the DR of the current Canon 50MP is fine, although not class leading. Actually for my shooting style I prefer 120MP over class-leading DR. My current 50MP CCD is not even class-leading among the CCDs, but what I want more of is foremost megapixels. Remains to be seen when this new Canon appears though, it can be more than a year away.

I would not worry about Sony not having time to make MF sensors, those are just trivial(?) scaleups of their 24x36mm sensor tech anyway.

It's nice to see Canon moving, at last. I'm also excited by their new lens tech (blue spectrum refractive lens element) which allows sharper lenses. All 135 lens manufacturers are moving forward to meet the new high res sensor demands. It shall be interesting to see how far they can reach, especially at the difficult wide end.

And yes this release will probably affect second hand MFD pricing, it was quite clear that the lower end backs dropped a bit when the 50MP Canon was announced. The second hand market seems to be very megapixel-driven, the MFD backs that no longer outresolves the smaller format loses their sexiness (noone seems to care about the lenses), so perhaps we'll see a significant drop of IQ180 and such backs this time around.

Here in Sweden there was a major bump in Hasselblad second hand sales up to 50MP during the spring, very good prices too, but now it has settled, not much out in the market right now. I bought my H4D-50 a bit too early and sold my Aptus a bit too late to make the best use of the situation, but I managed quite okay anyway.

I'm sure we'll see 645 full-frame CMOS "soon", and it will surely be up there at 120MP.

Personally I'm waiting for the next generation MFD CMOS, which I hope will be able to do tech wide angle much better than the current, and hopefully have quite a bit more megapixels. If they can't, my current MFD system is probably the last. I have no problems holding out a few more years though.

[eronald]

How many of the "leaks" on the web are actually well-thought-out marketing? Do you really think that a company like Apple cannot keep their production lines sealed off prior to iPhone release (or at least force their workers to not carry cameras)?

There are 300K people working for Foxconn directly, at least, plus the subcontractors. Gossip is practically the national sport in China. Do the maths.

What Apple do is bribe and sue the western media outlets so they don't publish.

But I agree that many "leaks" are marketing.

Edmund

[razrblck]

CMOSIS released a 70MP, 36x24mm CMOS sensor back in 2012 (announced in 2011) so I'm not really surprised that someone managed to cram 120 megapopsicles into one in 2015.

Frankly I'd take a sensor with "bad" specifications on paper but capable of delivering great RAW files (thanks to good software and profiles) over any monster sensor that boasts 42 stops of dynamic range and a utility knife for each pixel.

[BernardLanguillier]

Frankly I'd take a sensor with "bad" specifications on paper but capable of delivering great RAW files (thanks to good software and profiles) over any monster sensor that boasts 42 stops of dynamic range and a utility knife for each pixel.

Right, so actual raw file quality cannot be great with large DR CMOS sensors?

Does that apply to all CMOS or only those fitted in some cameras?

Cheers,
Bernard

[gdh]

I love announcements like this because you can then pick up a Hasselblad for less than the price of a Jap 35mm semi-pro/consumer camera.

Really, Bob Shaw?  You still use the pejorative term "Jap."

[BobShaw]

Really, Bob Shaw?  You still use the pejorative term "Jap."

Perhaps best to stick to answering the topic and save us from the moral high ground. Glass houses and so on.

If you imply that "Jap" is derogatory then not so. I love the country and have been there. Give me a Jap car any day.
The Japanese arguably make the best consumer products in the world.
However, they are cheaper than say a Leica 35mm, which is anything but a consumer product.

The fact is that top of the line Nikon or Canon is around $7000 body only. Add an 85 f1.2 or similar top line lens and you aren't much short of $10K, but you still only have a 35mm camera.
I have seen Hasselblad kits for $14K brand new and have bought and H3D for less than the price of a 5D3 body.

[razrblck]

Right, so actual raw file quality cannot be great with large DR CMOS sensors?

Does that apply to all CMOS or only those fitted in some cameras?

Cheers,
Bernard

Dynamic range is only one part of the equation when it comes to making a good image. Some cameras have both things, but that is not always the case. My point is that DR alone doesn't make a good picture, just like extreme photo realism doesn't make a good painting.

A 120MP Canon sensor will have its own drawbacks, but photographers will find a way to take amazing photos with it like everyone did throughout history with the gear they had at he time.