Canon announces 120MP SLR, 8K (35Mp) 60fps cine cam.

[eronald]

They do a lot of concept stuff too yes, like the 250MP APS-H, and they do speciality stuff like sensors ending up in telescopes, all those things result in press releases. But this is an announcement for an EOS product, so it's different. They've made in development announcements several times before, and they eventually come out, but it can take a lot of time.

I think this is basically a hit against RED and ARRI. Everybody knew they were going to fight back in stills in some way, but Canon have been very conservative in video.

Edmund

[BernardLanguillier]

They've made in development announcements several times before, and they eventually come out, but it can take a lot of time.

As far as I recall their past 100 mp sensor announcement never turned into a shipping product. That was announced 5 years ago maybe?

Cheers,
Bernard

[torger]

As far as I recall their past 100 mp sensor announcement never turned into a shipping product. That was announced 5 years ago maybe?

Yes they make announcement for concept stuff, but if you actually read the press releases you can see the difference of what is concept stuff and what is an "in development" announcement for a planned product release. This is an "in development" announcement.

For example the recent APS-H 250MP press release ends with "Canon is considering the application of this technology in specialized surveillance and crime prevention tools, ultra-high-resolution measuring instruments and other industrial equipment, and the field of visual expression."

This press release it says: "Featuring a resolution of approximately 120 effective megapixels, the SLR camera now being developed will incorporate a Canon-developed high-pixel-density CMOS sensor within the current EOS-series platform, which will realize compatibility with the Company’s diverse interchangeable EF lens lineup"

You see the difference?

[BernardLanguillier]

You see the difference?

I see the difference, but I still lack historical data telling me how this difference translates into an actual product availability.

For me, sorry, it remains a marketing move lacking any significant substance.

Cheers,
Bernard

[torger]

I see the difference, but I still lack historical data telling me how this difference translates into an actual product availability.

For me, sorry, it remains a marketing move lacking any significant substance.

They've done this several before, I think more in their Cinema range than in the EOS range though, and as far as I know always delivered. I can agree though that the details on the "approximately 120MP" EOS SLR is more muddy than usual though, and this could be a first(?) in-development announcement they do for an EOS DSLR. But I personally, having followed Canon announcements for quite some time, would be very surprised if they don't deliver in the end. If they're muddy on details because it's really long time before they will release, or if they just don't want to say more is unclear.

[synn]

Continuing the tradition of this forum (And the threadstarter), if Phase can be chastised for a "Vaporware" body for years until it was launched (And then chastised afterwards also because this is Lula), then a fair share of scepticism until Canon actually ships the camera is warranted.

[torger]

Continuing the tradition of this forum (And the threadstarter), if Phase can be chastised for a "Vaporware" body for years until it was launched (And then chastised afterwards also because this is Lula), then a fair share of scepticism until Canon actually ships the camera is warranted.

you have a point

I believe it comes though, and I hope it's soon, but based on earlier stuff I think it's at least 8 months and possibly more than 12. I'm interested in it from a tech development and competition aspect, I don't plan to buy it myself. I'm currently in a dead-end stage of my MFD system though -- from my perspective there exists no attractive upgrade path, I have the best I can get for my needs (50MP 49x37mm CCD that plays well with my SK Digitar range). I want a CMOS back that can do wide angles with movements well, at a reasonable price. That may very well happen (most likely as a followup on the current CFV-50c), but maybe it won't. The MFD makers are in the hands of Sony. Anyway, heavy competition from below makes reasonable prices more likely, and if it doesn't end up well there's at least a decent alternative in the 135 range.

[Bo Dez]

For me, sorry, it remains a marketing move lacking any significant substance.

Cheers,
Bernard

My thoughts exactly.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Yes, I think we go that way. I still think MF has advantages, but it is way overrated, especially with smaller formates. Canon is of course on the go regarding lenses, too.

The winners are of course we, photographers.

Best regards
Erik

The announcement is here. Goodbye MF, I don't think Sony will have time to put out updated MF sensors anymore, they are going to be locked into a full speed race with Canon, where 35mm sensors would be outresolving the last generation MF.

Edmund

[MatthewCromer]

Pixel pitch would be about 2.7um. A Sony RX-100 III has 2.4um, so I guess the pixel peep quality will be about what you get from such a camera, but probably with a bit less DR as it's Canon.

A bit less?

Canon's latest FF sensor has less DR than Sony's 1" sensor. It's so bad that Canon is now sourcing the Sony 1" sensor so they can release a competitive compact camera (the G3X).

[MatthewCromer]

The fact that this camera is using an APS-H sensor (which Canon stopped putting into new cameras after 2009) tells us that it's almost certainly a technology development announcement, not a real product announcement.

There is no reason to build this sensor as APS-H for production release.

[JoeKitchen]

Interesting product announcement, but I think someone earlier said it best when they talked about "mush and noise" coming out of Canon's current hi res sensors.  

I have to wonder exactly how are they planning on getting people to replace all of their lenses with ones that will resolve the light enough for that small of a pixel.  Also, how expensive are these lenses going to be; will they be less than current MF lenses, which only need to resolve light to 5 microns?  

Maybe they will not upgrade their lenses and hope no one notices.  

Not to mention, lens cast is going to start to be a problem since the pixels are so small but the wells have not shortened, presumably.  How will they deal with that?  

So many questions, so little answers.  But hey, lets get excited for a sensor with very little support from what is placed directly in front of it.  

[torger]

There is no reason to build this sensor as APS-H for production release.

You're mixing up with the previous recent press release about the 250MP APS-H concept sensor. This is about a full-frame camera, probably a followup on what will become the "1D" version of the 5Ds.

[torger]

Canon's latest FF sensor has less DR than Sony's 1" sensor. It's so bad that Canon is now sourcing the Sony 1" sensor so they can release a competitive compact camera (the G3X).

Canon doesn't have the linear "iso-less"-like behavior like the Sony sensor has, so it's more noisy on the base ISO level, but keeps up quite well in higher ISOs. The big change is that their latest sensor tech in 7Dmk2 and 5Ds got rid of the dreaded pattern noise, which was the major limiting factor before. Now you can say it's about at the same performance level as a P45+, or my own H4D-50.

Yes for some shooting styles where you tonemap a lot the P45+ was not good enough and the 5Ds is not good enough either. However, for many other shooting styles where you don't push shadows the current achievable DR is quite fine. Actually some claim that the extra stops you get from the Sony sensor does not help that much as you generally have bad lighting in those areas anyway, ie no idea to push shadows that much.

I have a shooting style myself where I actually prefer high pixel count over high DR if I have to choose (having both is best of course).

One reason why Canon might be pushing it to 120 megapixels is that they see that they can have a lead in that area (together with high shooting speed too), while they consider the DR battle lost for yet some time. Sony is incredibly hard to beat on that metric.

[MatthewCromer]

Why are they announcing a camera without a model name, delivery date, or price?

Because it's not a real product announcement, it's just an attempt to stem the tide of defections away from their platform and stop people from going to Sony.

[MatthewCromer]

Canon doesn't have the linear "iso-less"-like behavior like the Sony sensor has, so it's more noisy on the base ISO level, but keeps up quite well in higher ISOs.

Well, the base ISO is where you get the highest quality images possible on any camera, so saying that Canon is competitive at IQ at high ISO is tantamount to saying that ultimate Canon IQ is less than you can get with Sony and Toshiba sensors.

The fact that Canon is buying a Sony sensor for 2.4 micron pixels instead of making their own suggests that their 120MP dSLR image quality with the same pixel size is likely to be a big question mark.

I would bet that Sony (who almost certainly has similar products in the pipeline) greatly appreciates the heads-up on what Canon will be releasing in a few years though, so they can plan their own product timelines and rollouts.

[AlterEgo]

Why are they announcing a camera without a model name, delivery date, or price?

Because it's not a real product announcement, it's just an attempt to stem the tide of defections away from their platform and stop people from going to Sony.

btw, you disappeared from the other topic ("Canon sows FUD") - any raws with 11 or more stops of DR from cameras based on Sony sensors ? I am itching to resurrect the topic @ http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=102203.0

[MatthewCromer]

btw, you disappeared from the other topic ("Canon sows FUD") - any raws with 11 or more stops of DR from cameras based on Sony sensors ? I am itching to resurrect the topic @ http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=102203.0

It's not relevant whether or not there are any raw images with 11 or more stops of DR from Sony cameras.

What is relevant is to take two images, one with a Canon and the other with a Sony sensor, using the same lens, at (essentially) the same time, and see if the Sony sensor image has much better shadow details.

That test has been repeated dozens of times, and always shows the Sony with far better shadows.

[torger]

Why are they announcing a camera without a model name, delivery date, or price?

Because it's not a real product announcement, it's just an attempt to stem the tide of defections away from their platform and stop people from going to Sony.

Yes that's probably part of the idea. But what will happen if they don't deliver a product in the end? Not good strategy. So far they have delivered on these type of announcements where they actually mention a product. I think this one is a first for a SLR body, and is looser on the details than they use to be. We'll see.

I also agree that the performance of the ~2.7um pixel is a question mark, but my best guess is that the overall DR performance will be very similar to the current 5Ds. I don't think they would launch a sensor that would move them significantly backwards in a metric where they are struggling to keep up.

Quite often in these threads people just say what they want to happen, not trying to figure out what is most likely. I try to do the latter here the best I can.

[AlterEgo]

It's not relevant whether or not there are any raw images with 11 or more stops of DR from Sony cameras.

OK, so you don't have anything about the __DR__ - that explains

PS: I understand that you try to switch the topic from DR you can really get to readout noise, but it is so obvious for everybody.