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Author Topic: Fuji camera profiles (or lack thereof)  (Read 25732 times)

Dominique_R

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Fuji camera profiles (or lack thereof)
« on: August 29, 2015, 03:07:22 pm »

Having had to give up on Adobe Camera RAW for reasons linked to new cameras, I have now been using Lightroom to develop my RAWs for a year or so. I'm on version 5.7, Windows 7.

However, while Lightroom has all the profiles I need for my Nikon bodies (including recent ones such as the D810) and Nikkor and Zeiss lenses, I am surprised to see that, regarding Fuji cameras, the only available profiles are for the X100S and X100T. No sign of any of the mirrorless, and therefore my X-Pro 1 and my lineup of Fujinons cannot benefit, which seems a bit strange...

Does version 6 fix this situation, or is Adobe deliberately ignoring the Fuji mirrorless and lenses?

Thanks in advance for enlightening me, folks in the know!
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Rand47

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Re: Fuji camera profiles (or lack thereof)
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2015, 03:59:20 pm »

Having had to give up on Adobe Camera RAW for reasons linked to new cameras, I have now been using Lightroom to develop my RAWs for a year or so. I'm on version 5.7, Windows 7.

However, while Lightroom has all the profiles I need for my Nikon bodies (including recent ones such as the D810) and Nikkor and Zeiss lenses, I am surprised to see that, regarding Fuji cameras, the only available profiles are for the X100S and X100T. No sign of any of the mirrorless, and therefore my X-Pro 1 and my lineup of Fujinons cannot benefit, which seems a bit strange...

Does version 6 fix this situation, or is Adobe deliberately ignoring the Fuji mirrorless and lenses?

Thanks in advance for enlightening me, folks in the know!

Yes... I'm using Lightroom CC 2015 and have the Fuji profiles as below:



Rand
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Manoli

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Re: Fuji camera profiles (or lack thereof)
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2015, 04:10:39 pm »

Yes... I'm using Lightroom CC 2015 and have the Fuji profiles as below:

With the exception of 'Camera CLASSIC CHROME' those also show in Lightroom 5.7 on X-E2 raf files
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Dominique_R

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Re: Fuji camera profiles (or lack thereof)
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2015, 05:00:49 pm »

I see, however what I have in mind is a body profile by name (such as: "X-Pro 1"), and then a lens profile (such as: "Fujinon XF 56mm f/1.2"), just like I have for my Nikon bodies.

I'm not looking for film simulations (which don't mean anything when one works with RAW files), as I don't use any (once again, RAW files...).

Should I post screen captures of what I use with Nikon cameras to make things clearer?
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David Sutton

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Re: Fuji camera profiles (or lack thereof)
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2015, 05:23:13 pm »

The lens profiles are built into the Fuji raw files and LR and Camera Raw apply them automatically.
See: https://helpx.adobe.com/x-productkb/multi/lens-profile-support-lightroom-4.html
David
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Manoli

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Re: Fuji camera profiles (or lack thereof)
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2015, 07:17:55 pm »

I'm not looking for film simulations (which don't mean anything when one works with RAW files), as I don't use any (once again, RAW files...)

Nope, not film simulations but built-in dcp profiles which you'll find under Develop>Camera Calibration>Profile. Whether you like it or not, you are using one: the default 'Adobe Standard' unless you choose another profile .

Develop settings, including lens corrections and camera profiles, can be stored as a new default identified by the camera serial number. Your choice.
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Dominique_R

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Re: Fuji camera profiles (or lack thereof)
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2015, 03:15:59 am »

Thanks for your replies (and in particular to David with his reference to the Adobe paper).

And maybe I didn't explain myself clearly, but what I was looking for was not under the "Camera Calibration" tab, but under the "Lens Corrections" one.

So, when developing a RAW (.RAF) file taken with a Fuji X camera equipped with a Fujinon lens, the type of camera (hence: sensor) is detected automatically, the lens used too, and the corrections are automatically applied, right?

Therefore, I will never see what I see with Nikons like the screen scapture below?

What surprises me with all those "automatic", "user-transparent" things, is that when I check the "Enable Profile Corrections" box, nothing at all whatsoever happens to the photo displayed on the screen... When I process Nikon RAWs, even when shot with an optically nearly perfect lens, such as the Zeiss 135/2, you see small changes happening, as regards for example light falloff corrections, or distortion, etc. Here, with Fuji lenses, never anything... Does that sound normal to you?

And what happens when I shoot with a Fuji X camera but, say, a Zeiss lens? Is it also detected automatically, and are corrections so applied?

Thanks in advance.
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David Sutton

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Re: Fuji camera profiles (or lack thereof)
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2015, 05:38:08 am »


So, when developing a RAW (.RAF) file taken with a Fuji X camera equipped with a Fujinon lens, the type of camera (hence: sensor) is detected automatically, the lens used too, and the corrections are automatically applied, right?

Correct

Therefore, I will never see what I see with Nikons like the screen scapture below?

Correct, though I believe you can find it when processing in Camera Raw.

What surprises me with all those "automatic", "user-transparent" things, is that when I check the "Enable Profile Corrections" box, nothing at all whatsoever happens to the photo displayed on the screen... When I process Nikon RAWs, even when shot with an optically nearly perfect lens, such as the Zeiss 135/2, you see small changes happening, as regards for example light falloff corrections, or distortion, etc. Here, with Fuji lenses, never anything... Does that sound normal to you?

Apparently you can't turn it off. Try PhotoNinja if you don't want lens corrections applied.

And what happens when I shoot with a Fuji X camera but, say, a Zeiss lens? Is it also detected automatically, and are corrections so applied?

No. Adobe Lens Profile Creator for that.

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Dominique_R

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Re: Fuji camera profiles (or lack thereof)
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2015, 06:14:58 am »

Thanks for your answer David.

As I think most Fuji X shooters are experienced post-processors as well, I believe this whole process should be "de-automatized" and should work the way it does with Nikon bodies and Nikon-mount lenses, whether Nikkor or other (I presume it's the same for Canon bodies and lenses).

At least, if it remains automatic and "user-transparent" (I'd rather call it "user-opaque"), the option should be available to opt out of this automated process and return to full manual control —just the way we like it when we take pictures: not necessarily always fully manual, but the option is there should we want it.

I will think about advocating this through appropriate channels (any suggestion is of course be welcome).

And resorting to learning yet another piece of software is not, I believe, the right solution. If the road is broken between City A and City B, "Take the train to B, or just drive to C instead" is not the right solution. "Work on fixing the road between A and B" is the right solution.
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drmike

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Re: Fuji camera profiles (or lack thereof)
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2015, 09:00:50 am »

For what it's worth I tried PhotoNinja when I first got my X-Pro as my copy of ACR couldn't do Fuji RAW.

In PhotoNinja (PN) you see that RAW file direct from camera with none of the Adobe magic worked and with the 18mm lens I can tell you it's awful like this



I spent some time in PN making corrections and they all ended up at 90%+ of teh available scale which I thought was terrible, but the tech at PN said what's the problem you have a good looking image. I asked why they didn't do what Adobe does and he said Fuji wouldn't release the info they needed, I assume he meant PN wouldn't pay for it but I don't know.

I think that as has been said Fuji embed the required corrections for the non optically perfect lenses in RAW and Adobe for example use that Fuji information to correct as Fuji would wish so sort of making them appear perfect.

I may be wrong.

Mike
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Paul2660

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Re: Fuji camera profiles (or lack thereof)
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2015, 09:23:06 am »

The embedded info use is true with all the mirrorless cameras APC.  I believe that Oly and Sony (nex) all work the same way. Not sure how the A7 full frame series are handled.

Paul


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Paul Caldwell
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rdonson

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Re: Fuji camera profiles (or lack thereof)
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2015, 05:47:44 pm »

Thanks for your replies (and in particular to David with his reference to the Adobe paper).

Therefore, I will never see what I see with Nikons like the screen scapture below?

What surprises me with all those "automatic", "user-transparent" things, is that when I check the "Enable Profile Corrections" box, nothing at all whatsoever happens to the photo displayed on the screen... When I process Nikon RAWs, even when shot with an optically nearly perfect lens, such as the Zeiss 135/2, you see small changes happening, as regards for example light falloff corrections, or distortion, etc. Here, with Fuji lenses, never anything... Does that sound normal to you?

And what happens when I shoot with a Fuji X camera but, say, a Zeiss lens? Is it also detected automatically, and are corrections so applied?

Thanks in advance.

I'm not sure if I misunderstand the issue or not.  In "Lens Corrections" I do see what you see for your Nikon.  I use a Fuji X-T1 and the information isn't correct that's in "Lens Corrections" but something IS there that indicates Fuji.  Perhaps this is Adobe not deciphering everything Fuji has in the RAW file but the corrections are performed.  I can see that by turning off the corrections.  I have 3 Fuji lenses, 10-24, 18-135 and 60mm.  All behave this way.  Fuji says they've worked a great deal with Adobe to get the demosaicing of the X-Trans sensor looking good but I'm not sure where they are on this issue.

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Paul2660

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Re: Fuji camera profiles (or lack thereof)
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2015, 06:16:45 pm »

Fuji files in LR are automatically corrected for distortion you cannot  turn it on or off at least with the X-T1 or Xe-1&2. The distortion info is contained in the exit info and LR makes the correction.

I believe this is true for most of the mirrorless cameras.   There is no way I know if to process a raw file from Fuji without it at least with a Fuji brand lens. I don't know how a Fuji with say a Samyang or Zeiss lens would work in LR in regard to distortion corrections.

With Nikon and Canon you have the choice to turn it on or off and pick a lens type.

Paul

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Paul Caldwell
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Denis de Gannes

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Re: Fuji camera profiles (or lack thereof)
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2015, 06:25:05 pm »

I'm not sure if I misunderstand the issue or not.  In "Lens Corrections" I do see what you see for your Nikon.  I use a Fuji X-T1 and the information isn't correct that's in "Lens Corrections" but something IS there that indicates Fuji.  Perhaps this is Adobe not deciphering everything Fuji has in the RAW file but the corrections are performed.  I can see that by turning off the corrections.  I have 3 Fuji lenses, 10-24, 18-135 and 60mm.  All behave this way.  Fuji says they've worked a great deal with Adobe to get the demosaicing of the X-Trans sensor looking good but I'm not sure where they are on this issue.


The lens in the screen capture you posted is for the Fujifilm FinePix X100 which has a fixed lens. I do not think it should be used with your Fujifilm X-T1 which uses interchangeable lenses.
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Paul2660

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Re: Fuji camera profiles (or lack thereof)
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2015, 06:47:37 pm »

Exactly, the X100 has the fixed lens, and is as far as I know it the only Fuji you can pick a profile for.

The Fuji X-T1 as I understand it, loads into LR in the develop module with the lens corrections already applied.  It's confusing you still have the option to check the boxes. But when you check them and go to the next level, there is nothing to pick from. You can try using auto, or default, but I don't believe either of these make any difference. 

This is how it was explained to me by others on this site  when I asked this question about the X-E1 and profiles.  To me it's confusing as the options to enable a profile are still there.

Paul
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Paul Caldwell
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rdonson

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Re: Fuji camera profiles (or lack thereof)
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2015, 07:43:41 pm »

The lens in the screen capture you posted is for the Fujifilm FinePix X100 which has a fixed lens. I do not think it should be used with your Fujifilm X-T1 which uses interchangeable lenses.

As I stated, I don't think the info posted in Lens Corrections is accurate.  How Adobe comes up with the info in Lens Corrections is the issue. Whether the fault lies with Adobe or Fuji I have no idea. 

The images from the X-T1 and lenses with Lens Corrections applied by Lr/ACR look great.  Obviously the proper profiles for camera and lenses are applied regardless of the information presented.  Until Adobe/Fuji puzzles this out I'm happy with the results and will continue using this. For me this is just a quirk.
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rdonson

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Re: Fuji camera profiles (or lack thereof)
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2015, 07:52:10 pm »

BTW, the 12mm Rokinon f/2.0 works well on the X-T1 but its a manual lens.  No information is passed to the camera therefore all lens corrections require user intervention although once performed they can be saved as a preset.

I use an preset I developed for Import where the baseline things I prefer are applied then.  That includes Lens Corrections, base sharpening, application of Provia profile, etc. 

FWIW the X-Trans sensor RAW files also doesn't fare well if you try to sharpen the images with the same techniques used for Nikon and Canon Bayer sensors. 
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mvsoske

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Re: Fuji camera profiles (or lack thereof)
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2015, 09:08:08 pm »

FWIW the X-Trans sensor RAW files also doesn't fare well if you try to sharpen the images with the same techniques used for Nikon and Canon Bayer sensors. 

What process do you use for sharpening X-Trans files in LRCC/6?  I believe it has changed since the update in the software.

Mark

rdonson

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Re: Fuji camera profiles (or lack thereof)
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2015, 12:46:10 pm »

This article by Peter Bridgwood helped me immensely.  Its worked for me in Lr V5, Lr CC 2014 and Lr CC 2015.  Based on this I created a set of presets that I use. From there I season to taste.

http://petebridgwood.com/wp/2014/10/x-trans-sharpening/
« Last Edit: September 01, 2015, 01:03:20 pm by rdonson »
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Ron

Paul2660

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Re: Fuji camera profiles (or lack thereof)
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2015, 03:42:09 pm »

To me LR improved their Fuji raw conversion with the latest version of the ACR. Much less issue with finer objects against a blue sky whereas in the past halos were much more common

Adobe also issued a statement of direction which implied they were working on further x-trans raw conversion improvements.

Paul
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