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Author Topic: Prints for dim viewing conditions  (Read 5481 times)

KMRennie

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Prints for dim viewing conditions
« on: August 29, 2015, 10:29:43 am »

I can produce quite nice prints on my R2880 with Permajet CIS when I view them under a cheap viewing lamp. However when viewed in my living room or more so bedroom the prints obviously look darker but they lack sparkle and just look dull. Everything is calibrated HP wide gamut monitor set to 120 cd m-2 and 6500K and every paper I use having a custom profile. I do not really see a colour cast when viewed under the tungsten lighting but what can I do about the dullness?

My thoughts are:
1. Recalibrate the monitor to 80 - 90 cd m-2 or lower.
2. Apply a curve to lift the midtones before printing
3. Lift the shadows by setting the black point to 5 or 10 instead of 0.
4. Apply a bit of mid tone contrast either using Large radius unsharp mask orNik  Color Efex tonal contrast.
5. Increase the saturation.
6. Increase the room lighting used in my workroom which is quite dark when I work.
7. Fit display lamps to the rooms. This may be the best solution but my least favourite.

I think that I have read almost everything on the subject, some of which I understand.

I realise that I can just try each of my possible solutions and try and hone into a final solution but with 6 variables it may be an expensive, time consuming  and probably impossible task. Can anyone give me clue even if it is negative like X won't work.

Ken
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graeme

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Re: Prints for dim viewing conditions
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2015, 11:52:08 am »

They all sound like reasonable steps to take apart from 3. I would have thought that keeping some areas of full black in the images would make the other tones appear lighter. Might even be worth trying to take more of the images down to full black while lifting the shadows.

I'd be interested to hear what solutions work for you.

Graeme
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ashaughnessy

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Re: Prints for dim viewing conditions
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2015, 12:14:33 pm »

I had this question many years ago. I wondered how people addressed the issue and I think I accepted that the only answer is to put more light into your living room. It's the same with paintings, a picture won't look as good in dim light.

If you were somehow able to fudge the picture using the tricks you suggest, what would then happen when the picture happened to be seen in full light?

I really think you should make the picture look as good as it can in good light, then try and light it as best you can in the room where it hangs.

The only other thing I'd suggest is to reduce the effect of the glass in the frame to a minimum. Ordinary glass or plastics will absorb or reflect some fraction of the incident light, so using some kind of museum glass will help make the most of what you've got. I think someone posted a summary of the various museum glass options on here quite recently.
Anthony
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Prints for dim viewing conditions
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2015, 12:24:24 pm »

Solution that works for me: canvas prints. They look good no matter how dim the light. I suspect the same goes for matt prints (without glass).

Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Prints for dim viewing conditions
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2015, 01:03:23 pm »

Framing without glass but finished with a protection spray is what I recommend. Selecting papers with the highest paper white reflectance, preferably without OBA content if the display light is low in UV as well so the paper can last a bit longer. Some gain in reflectance with OBA content but shorter life then.

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ashaughnessy

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Re: Prints for dim viewing conditions
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2015, 01:08:13 pm »

Slobodan, I found your suggestion hard to credit (I noted  the caveat "that works for me") so I did my own test. Not sure what it proves, but here goes.

I viewed several images side by side in first a dim room, then under a bright skylight. I had two prints for each image - one on epson archival matte and one on Harman Fb Al gloss. Both were printed on the same printer (Epson 2100), each paper having its own custom profile. I'm normally entirely happy with the results from both papers using this printer and the custom profiles and they are both very faithful to the image I see on my calibrated / profiled monitor.
The prints were all A3+. They were NOT behind glass.

In each case, I basically couldn't tell the difference, whether in dim or bright light. I suspect the Dmax for epson archival matte is probably much better than any canvas, so I'm not sure if I've proved anything here but I had expected the matte paper would not look as good in dim light due to it having less punch than the gloss paper. This wasn't the case. But it also wasn't the case in good light so perhaps the epson paper has a particularly good Dmax for a matte paper, or perhaps the Harman a particularly bad one. I had expected the epson paper to look a little less punchy than the harman but it didn't.

I didn't try viewing under direct sunlight (my skylight is north facing).

I don't print on canvas so can't reproduce Slobodan's results exactly but I was responding to his suspicion about matte prints.

Anthony
PS: The images used were these, which I think are a good spread of tones:
https://anthonyshaughnessy.wordpress.com/galleries/light-and-colour/#jp-carousel-331
https://anthonyshaughnessy.wordpress.com/galleries/light-and-colour/#jp-carousel-335
https://anthonyshaughnessy.wordpress.com/yorkshire-dales/#jp-carousel-318
https://anthonyshaughnessy.wordpress.com/galleries/winter/#jp-carousel-294
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Prints for dim viewing conditions
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2015, 01:47:54 pm »

Here's a thread I started over the same issue with photos showing dimness of my living room...

http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=89689.0

I went the edit lighter route rather than change my display calibration and workstation surroundings.
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KMRennie

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Re: Prints for dim viewing conditions
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2015, 12:27:29 pm »

Thanks for all of the advice. Tim I enjoyed your thread and if I had found it I would not have started this one. At the moment I have recalibrated my monitor to 90cd m-2 and changed the background colour to white rather than dark grey. Images that I had previously processed now look a little too dark so I have lifted them with a curve. I have also added just a touch of saturation. I am presently experimenting with applying some shadow contrast (Nik Color Efex/ Tonal Contrast) using blending options to limit it to the deep shadows only. This seems to give shadow areas more definition.

Ken
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digitaldog

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Re: Prints for dim viewing conditions
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2015, 04:26:23 pm »

My thoughts are:
1. Recalibrate the monitor to 80 - 90 cd m-2 or lower.
Yup, do that. If possible, up the value for other needs. See how that works out. Consider output specific edits (really easy in Lightroom).
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Prints for dim viewing conditions
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2015, 06:14:06 pm »

Thanks for all of the advice. Tim I enjoyed your thread and if I had found it I would not have started this one. At the moment I have recalibrated my monitor to 90cd m-2 and changed the background colour to white rather than dark grey. Images that I had previously processed now look a little too dark so I have lifted them with a curve. I have also added just a touch of saturation. I am presently experimenting with applying some shadow contrast (Nik Color Efex/ Tonal Contrast) using blending options to limit it to the deep shadows only. This seems to give shadow areas more definition.

Ken

I've been trying to figure out a way to change the background color in ACR/LR to a lighter tone which is why I always check finished Raws/jpegs in Photoshop, drag the lower right bounding frame and compare to the white canvas surround. Just wish there was a flip switch to do this in ACR/LR.

With regard to shadow definition it's often hard for me to remember the overall darkness of the original scene and whether I should make a dim and dark looking scene much lighter without destroying nuance and ambiance where it ends up boiling down to establishing contrast ratio of individual elements which affects overall definition combined with the flattening effect from brightening. Gauging contrast is even harder to recall from the original scene.

For instance below is an example of my struggle remembering original overall brightness of the scene shown on the left in that I recall a sunbeam cutting through the hill top trees fluorescing the gas station signage and construction barriers and walls while brightening the half of the cloud but I wasn't getting it. Also the WB was off due to the tree's filter effect adding greenish yellow to the clouds. I had to resort to increasing Red, Orange and Yellow Luminance in ACR's HSL panel and adjust Yellow Hue to remove the green on the finished version on the right. If I'ld just moved the Contrast slider it would've plugged up the dark background trees. The print is still going to look somewhat dark though but that's the way the scene looked because the sun is so low and partially blocked.

Another example brightness/contrast perception issues is Sony 4K projected digital movies at my local theater are somehow able to provide just enough shadow definition with smooth graduation out of rather weak and milky looking black points. I have to compare the movie's online trailer on my calibrated display to notice a much denser black point with much less shadow definition but more dramatic & dynamic contrast.
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howardm

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Re: Prints for dim viewing conditions
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2015, 08:03:24 pm »

Tim, not understanding because when I'm in the LR Develop module (at least back to LR5), right clicking on the background brings up a menu of shades of gray and I also have switched to light gray to help w/ visualizing the 'darker when printed' problem, esp w/ a image of a shop window and street scene in Montreal in the early AM.

Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Prints for dim viewing conditions
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2015, 08:29:32 pm »

Tim, not understanding because when I'm in the LR Develop module (at least back to LR5), right clicking on the background brings up a menu of shades of gray and I also have switched to light gray to help w/ visualizing the 'darker when printed' problem, esp w/ a image of a shop window and street scene in Montreal in the early AM.

You're right, Howard. My mistake. I just 'Control' clicked in LR4's Develop module and got the option for white, grays and black surround. I just haven't been working in LR lately because that cloud image I posted among others has to be reworked from scratch once switching from CS5 PV2010 to LR4's PV2012.

Probably should just force myself to reworking images that challenge me in LR since that makes about the third rework on that cloud image starting in CS3/PV2003 due to how its WB, contrast and brightness affect my perception and adaptation on my eyes.

I still wish ACR 6.7 had the same surround change selection.
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howardm

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Re: Prints for dim viewing conditions
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2015, 10:18:42 pm »

what is the ACR 6x background?  Been a couple of years since I used that and v9 has a light-ish gray (but no adjustability :( )

Personally, I dont like editing on a bright background but it definitely has an effect on my perception of the very low tones. so I generally use light or med gray and maybe flip back to something even lighter when I'm looking for how it might print down

Kiwi Paul

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Re: Prints for dim viewing conditions
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2015, 01:54:25 am »

I use daylight LED spots in my lounge directed at the pictures on the walls. There are 4 spots in the centre of the ceiling aimed to where they need to point.

Paul 
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