Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Denver Police Arrest "Jury Nullification" Activist For Passing Out Informational  (Read 2734 times)

Gulag

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 336

"Most of you will be familiar with the concept of jury nullification. Unfortunately, the vast majority of Americans are not. This is precisely why Mark Iannicelli set up a “Jury Info” booth outside the Lindsay-Flanigan Courthouse in Denver. When you recognize the vast power that such a concept holds, you recognize why it would be so hated by statists and authoritarians across the land. That is precisely why Mr. Iannicelli was arrested and charged with handing out information. "

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-08-25/denver-police-arrest-jury-nullification-activist-passing-out-informational-pamphlets

Logged
"Photography is our exorcism. Primitive society had its masks, bourgeois society its mirrors. We have our images."

— Jean Baudrillard

spidermike

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 535

Rather hung up on this 'authoritarian state' thing, aren't you.  ;)

My first question would be why does he need to do this outside the courtroom - without knowing what exactly he is said to have done(it is remarkably difficult to find) I would say his actions were inflammatory to ay the least. I am not saying what he did was wrong, but certainly inflammatory. I believe jurors should know that they have this right, but there is also a risk that it would be severely abused and that alone should cause some level of concern as to how it is promulgated.

I think in such situations, police are not really sure what to do and when it seems 'just wrong' to be doing this outside a courtroom police sometimes go into defensive mode of arrest first and find out the decision afterwards.  As such innate view is usually one of 'cock up rather than conspiracy'. I think that the view he was arrested because he is hated by statists and authoritarians is verging on conspiracy theorist bull.
Logged

Otto Phocus

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 655

Good.

Jury nullification is a terrible thing.  Emotionally, some may see it as a short term fix, but in the long term it can undermine the legal system.

If people feel that a law is unjust, they need to petition the legislation responsible for the law to get it changed. Laws are changed all the time.

The legislation, however, is looking for more than just a small sub-group's opinion on a law.

That's the problem with Jury Nullification -- It allows a few people (in some jurisdictions/cases as few as one) to dictate their opinion of the law onto the public.  That is about as far from democracy as you can get.

A jury is not empowered to interpret the worth of the law, but empowered to evaluate the prosecution's case of applying the existing law to that specific case.

Nothing more.
Logged
I shoot with a Camera Obscura with an optical device attached that refracts and transmits light.

spidermike

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 535

We had a similar case several years ago where a civil servant gave to an MP documents surrounding the sinking of the Argentine battleship Belgrano during the Falkands War in 1982. He was tried under the Official Secrets Ac, the judge directed the jury to find him guilty but they cleared him.
Many people sympathised with their decision because in this case it seemed to be a government cover-up and needed to be exposed for that reason if no other. Legal academics looked on this as being their asserting rights to 'natural justice' where what is simply 'right' trumps anything the legislators dream up in written law.

But the idea of publicising to people that they have a right to pass judgement on the validity of a law fills me with real concern. Laws are (in theory anyway) a society's communal agreement on how we should govern our society and the idea of a group of the defendant's peers thinking 'yeah, I think I should be allowed to shoplift without being prosecuted' is not what was intended. And the actions in the OP could well have been taken to enticing people to 'ignore what the law says do whatever you want'.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clive_Ponting
Logged

stamper

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5882

The Belgrano. Margaret Thatcher stated it was a menace to the British fleet therefore it deserved to be torpedoed. Propaganda at the time stated that it was a Mark 23 torpedo was used. The truth was it was a world war 1 mark 8 torpedo that sunk it. The navy decided to use the latter because it was cheaper and the Belgrano was a "sitting duck". When the submarine returned to Faslane all mark 23 torpedoes were off loaded and a mark 8 was missing. When a woman on TV challenged Thatcher about the fact that the Belgrano - an ex USA ship that saw action at Pearl Harbour - was moving away from the British fleet it exposed Thatcher's lies. Whistle blowers are good but often maligned.  :(

mezzoduomo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 349

The OJ Simpson case was a jury nullification. How do you like it now?  :o
Logged

spidermike

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 535

The OJ Simpson case was a jury nullification. How do you like it now?  :o

Was the OJ decision a jury's opinion on the law or was it a decision about someone's guilt and the quality of the case put forward? I don't think anybody (at the time or since) has viewed it as a matter of conscience or miscarriage of justice. More about an element of racial tensions and 'tit-for-tat' sentencing.
Logged

ddolde

  • Guest

What if you get sucked in to being a juror and the charge is something ridiculous like marijuana possession. It's still a felony in some states for even an ounce.  I'd definitely use my power of nullification here.

Logged

mezzoduomo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 349

Was the OJ decision a jury's opinion on the law or was it a decision about someone's guilt and the quality of the case put forward? I don't think anybody (at the time or since) has viewed it as a matter of conscience or miscarriage of justice. More about an element of racial tensions and 'tit-for-tat' sentencing.

It was very clearly a miscarriage of justice. Guilty...so incredibly guilty...yet the verdict was 'not guilty.' Not quite enough of the victim's blood in OJs car? Maybe just one more drop and the jury would have been able to get past their 'reasonable doubt'. Please....

Logged

spidermike

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 535

It was very clearly a miscarriage of justice. Guilty...so incredibly guilty...yet the verdict was 'not guilty.' Not quite enough of the victim's blood in OJs car? Maybe just one more drop and the jury would have been able to get past their 'reasonable doubt'. Please....



Well, yes. But in that case they were hardly trying to avoid a miscarriage of justice  :P
Logged

mezzoduomo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 349

True.  Perhaps I have my semantics all messed up.

Anyway, I'd have a very hard time going along with a harsh conviction for simple grass possession, and I'd have a hard time going along with disregarding a mountain of evidence in a murder case just to address some vague, perceived racial slight.
Logged

Otto Phocus

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 655

It is my opinion that the OJ Simpson verdict of "Not Guilty" was appropriate as the prosecution did not make a clear case.  It is up to the prosecution to prove guilt.  This is why US juries don't issue a verdict of "Innocent".  There is a difference between being Innocent of a crime and being Not Guilty of a crime.
Logged
I shoot with a Camera Obscura with an optical device attached that refracts and transmits light.

spidermike

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 535

It is my opinion that the OJ Simpson verdict of "Not Guilty" was appropriate as the prosecution did not make a clear case.  It is up to the prosecution to prove guilt. 

That is the conclusion I came to as well. Mind you there was so much to-ing and fro-ing and disallowed evidence that I am not surprised the jury was screwed up logic-wise. Now that would have been a case for nullification - to ignore the judge's direction to ignore certain evidence.  ;)

Logged

Otto Phocus

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 655

Now that would have been a case for nullification - to ignore the judge's direction to ignore certain evidence.  ;)

No, that is why we have rules of evidence.  :)  Evidence that is inadmissible needs to be ignored by the jury... otherwise it would be admissible.  :)

Think of how a prosecutor or a defense lawyer could abuse this by introducing emotionally charged "evidence" in order to sway the jury?
Logged
I shoot with a Camera Obscura with an optical device attached that refracts and transmits light.

TomFrerichs

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 108

Leaving OJ to his own devices for a moment...

There's two issues being discussed here: the arrest of the person passing out literature discussion "juror nullification" and the concept of juror nullification.

Regarding the former issue: the article listed appears to be a special pleading, and there is nothing wrong with that. It does, however, leave a number of questions unanswered.  In particular, was the person charged approaching people entering the courthouse or was he targeting people who had already been empaneled as jurors.  There's a significant difference.

Those who were reporting for jury service were not yet jurors. They hadn't gone through voir dire nor had they been sworn. If this is the case, and he was passing out his literature to any and all who would take it on the courthouse steps, then I see no reason to charge him. If, on the other hand, he was targeting already enpaneled jurors, particularly if they were on a particular case, then his actions could be construed as an attempt to affect the jury's consideration of the facts of the case.

Regarding juror nullification: yes, it has long existed, but in many cases it is not the "strike for freedom" that some may ascribe as the motivation. Jurors have wrongly convicted, even if the evidence was very weak, because they thought the defendant deserved it.  This is almost lynching with a veneer of judicial respectability. As said earlier, juror nullification--that is ignoring the law as presented--is the substitution of the decisions of six or twelve citizens for the majority will, acting through their elected representatives.

In the American system of justice the jury acts as the "trier of fact," while the judge is the "trier of law." It is the sovereign right of the jury to determine the credibility of witnesses, weigh the physical evidence, and draw appropriate conclusions--in other words determine the facts--from what has been  properly presented to them, then make a decision if those facts and conclusions meet the requirements of the law that has been presented to them as instructions from the court.

It is up to the judge to determine how to apply the law which has passed by a duly elected legislature. The prosecution and defense counsel certainly have a chance to argue their own view of the law, argument that the jury never sees as it isn't their responsibility. The judge may also determine that the particular law is conflict with higher laws. And of course there's the ability to appeal the judge's determination. This is what jury nullification attempts to sidestep, and that's why it is looked upon with disfavor.
Logged

spidermike

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 535

In the American system of justice the jury acts as the "trier of fact," while the judge is the "trier of law." It is the sovereign right of the jury to determine the credibility of witnesses, weigh the physical evidence, and draw appropriate conclusions--in other words determine the facts--from what has been  properly presented to them, then make a decision if those facts and conclusions meet the requirements of the law that has been presented to them as instructions from the court.

It is up to the judge to determine how to apply the law which has passed by a duly elected legislature. The prosecution and defense counsel certainly have a chance to argue their own view of the law, argument that the jury never sees as it isn't their responsibility. The judge may also determine that the particular law is conflict with higher laws. And of course there's the ability to appeal the judge's determination. This is what jury nullification attempts to sidestep, and that's why it is looked upon with disfavor.

But our comment falls down at the first hurdle.

In the American system of justice the jury... has the right to act as 'trier of law' which is the whole point of jury nullification. It is not a sidestep it is parallel.
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up