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Author Topic: Paul Craig Roberts: "America Is A Gulag"  (Read 34610 times)

Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Paul Craig Roberts: "America Is A Gulag"
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2015, 07:28:21 pm »

Gulag's original point is, I think, best expressed in this video, whose trenchant criticism of current American society is perhaps uniquely perceptive. It begins with a rather silly attempt at humour at the expense of the only true democracy in the Far East; its insightful dissection of consumerism begins a few minutes in. Nobody who has not seen it can possibly understand the all-encompassing nature of the totalitarian state in which Americans live.

God only knows what they'd make of England.

Jeremy
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Gulag

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Re: Paul Craig Roberts: "America Is A Gulag"
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2015, 07:54:27 pm »

German photographer Jacobia Dahm has showed us visual narratives of upstate New York prison visits by prisoners' families from NYC here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2892048/Seeing-new-year-prison-bus-Moving-photos-families-prisoners-traveling-hundreds-miles-visit-just-hours.html

Chris Hedges speaks out against prison system's econimic incentive,   and how it has produced great profit for some.

  http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/americas_slave_empire_20150621,
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/the_prison_state_of_america_20141228.

Finally let me quote:

"The question of how far people are genuinely at liberty to shape their own fate is not just a question of the resources at their disposal. To the extent that we feel embedded in a pattern of historical destiny in which we have no major role to play, our choices are narrowed, even for the richest, to the career-options we believe are endemic to our age—the freedom of a restaurant patron. The reason we sometimes feel the Greeks were freer than ourselves, even though incredibly poor by modern standards, is because they do not seem to have been bound by this kind of historical emplotment. “Taking its course” is the answer of someone enslaved by more than poverty."

— Joshua Foa Dienstag, Pessimism: Philosophy, Ethic, Spirit, 2006
« Last Edit: August 22, 2015, 07:56:45 pm by Gulag »
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amolitor

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Re: Paul Craig Roberts: "America Is A Gulag"
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2015, 11:29:20 pm »

But I thought I made it clear, Russ, it's not a conspiracy at all. It's just a bunch of people acting in their own best interests.

People with money are just in a better position to act effectively. To the detriment of the poor. This is always true, but moreso in America in recent years, for a variety of reasons.

This has consequences, one of which appears to be tons of poor people in jail.

Black folks, being disproportionately poor, are disproportionately jailed. That's a side issue, though.




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Alan Klein

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Re: Paul Craig Roberts: "America Is A Gulag"
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2015, 09:50:07 am »

I'm predicting that Obama will pardon huge numbers of federal prisoners incarcerated for "minor" drug offenses as one of his parting directives (after the November, 2017 presidential election).

While there are no laws against drinking as there are against drugs, many people have been imprisoned for crimes committed under the influence of alcohol.   

Alan Klein

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Re: Paul Craig Roberts: "America Is A Gulag"
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2015, 09:54:42 am »

These crimes committed while drinking include rape, murder, assault as well the expected vehicular homicide.  I once read that the statistic might be more than half of these crimes under alcohol.  Drug use just adds to these figures.  Maybe that's why we have such a high incarceration rate.  Because of the heavy use of drugs and alcohol in America. 

texshooter

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Re: Paul Craig Roberts: "America Is A Gulag"
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2015, 12:16:45 pm »

We have a higher percentage of our people in prison than practically any other nation.

Not high enough if you ask me.
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RSL

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Re: Paul Craig Roberts: "America Is A Gulag"
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2015, 12:51:51 pm »

But I thought I made it clear, Russ, it's not a conspiracy at all. It's just a bunch of people acting in their own best interests.

People with money are just in a better position to act effectively. To the detriment of the poor. This is always true, but moreso in America in recent years, for a variety of reasons.

This has consequences, one of which appears to be tons of poor people in jail.

Black folks, being disproportionately poor, are disproportionately jailed. That's a side issue, though.

So in your mind, Andrew, when people with money act effectively it's to the detriment of the poor? Maybe you could explain what you see as the connection so I can understand what you're saying. On the face of it it sounds like a Marxian zero-sum argument, but based on the general level of your posts I have a hard time believing you actually believe something that stupid.

There are only three ways to make a lot of money. You can inherit it, but that's not "making" it, and often those who inherit fortunes are no more capable of handing the result than are million dollar lottery winners. You can establish political connections that will let you charge for your influence, and we have a classic example of that before us at the moment. Or, you can produce something people want enough to pay for it.

Henry Ford, Bill Gates, and Steve Jobs are classic examples of the third way. The interesting thing about tbat third way to make bags of money is that it invariably benefits everybody: you, the people marketing your product, and the people buying your product. Ford, Gates, and Jobs have provided more employment for people than anyone else I can think of at the moment, and I'd be willing to bet you're reading this on a product from a company founded either by Gates or by Jobs, and perhaps even driving a Ford. If this seems a mystery, I'd recommend a careful read of Adam Smith.

One thing that puts poor people in jail is indiscriminate government largess. If you're a young dude, black or white, who doesn't have to work because you're getting a check and food stamps from the government, what do you do? You hang out on street corners and look for some excitement, and it's a pretty fair bet the excitement eventually is going to land you in jail. As far as black folks being disproportionately jailed is concerned, the fact is that black folks are committing a disproportionate percentage of crimes.

I'm not going to defend the way we jail people. A huge percentage of people in jail are there for drug offenses, which is absurd. It's also a result of more bureaucracy -- a government "drug war" business that's not going away. But a lot of our prisoners are there because they're dangerous and need to be removed from society. England (Jeremy take note) used to have two ways to remove dangerous people from society. They either sent them to Australia or executed them. We can't send our criminals to Australia, and we've reached a point in our wussiness where execution practically is out of the question. Result: jails full of people.
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amolitor

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Re: Paul Craig Roberts: "America Is A Gulag"
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2015, 01:09:59 pm »

Trickle down economics is as discredited as Marxism. It turns out to be more complicated than either. Neither an unfettered market not a planned economy works all that well. A certain, and I suspect variable, amount of government intervention is a good idea.

Increasingly, the wealthy are not serious contributors, their wealth is generated by financial engineering, and that is as near as I can tell an inevitable result of a large and insufficiently regulated economy. An economy of any size needs a construct like money to operate itself, which is basically why Marxism doesn't work at scale. Once you have money, people are motivated to accumulate as much as possible of it with as little effort as possible, obviously. At scale, you also need investment banking in some form. Absent sufficient government control, people in positions of control will invent financial engineering to extract money from the investment banking system. While they certainly won't object if their methods benefit everyone, they probably won't mind much if the methods don't.

The days when wealth was generated by the creation of new industries and so on, to the benefit of all, seen to be on a downslope. Our newest billionaires are hedge funds guys and dot com guys (who are in turn basically advertising guys). Maybe I'm missing something but I'm not really seeing Henry Ford anywhere in there.

We are in agreement that poor government policies are problematic!
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texshooter

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Re: Paul Craig Roberts: "America Is A Gulag"
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2015, 01:18:09 pm »

It's either more prisons or more abortion clinics. Take your pick.
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AlterEgo

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Re: Paul Craig Roberts: "America Is A Gulag"
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2015, 01:24:59 pm »

We can't send our criminals to Australia
a lot of countries will gladly accept inmates for a small amount of money, less than a cost to keep in jail for a year...
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texshooter

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Re: Paul Craig Roberts: "America Is A Gulag"
« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2015, 01:41:53 pm »

a lot of countries will gladly accept inmates for a small amount of money, less than a cost to keep in jail for a year...

Brilliant idea! We outsource every other industry, why not prisons?
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RSL

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Re: Paul Craig Roberts: "America Is A Gulag"
« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2015, 03:34:27 pm »

For starters, Andrew, "trickle down economics" is a meaningless cliché cooked up by Socialists who won't admit they're Socialists, and there's nothing "complicated" about it. In one case you have the people collectively, a group  Adam Smith called "the invisible hand," making economic decisions. On the other you have politicians, elected or not elected making economic decisions. We can see a current example of what happens when you move away from what you call "trickle down economics" by looking at Venezuela. That's government (non trickle down) economics in action.

We no longer know how unfettered markets work, we haven't had any unfettered markets since FDR, so nobody can speak from experience about how unfettered markets work. We do have some historical examples of unfettered markets from before FDR, and they're what gave the UK enough prosperity and strength to fight WW I, and let the United States and the UK fight WW II. At the moment, because we've lost our unfettered markets, there's some doubt about whether or not we have the financial strength to fight WW III. Capitalism has its problems, but to misquote Churchill: "Capitalism is the worst economic system possible, except for all the others."

Yes, a lot of people are making big money on the FED's financial engineering, but that's exactly what happens when the government gets its hands on an economy. Ours is a long way from an unregulated economy. It's an economy being regulated to death.

And I agree that the days when wealth was generated by the creation of new industries is on a downslope, but the reason it's on a downslope is that our economy is being destroyed by government over-management. A small but classic example is the way UBER has been fought by government. You're going to tell me that it's actually the taxi companies doing that, but they're doing it through government. Those are the people doing financial engineering, and they're doing it through politics -- buying financial engineering from government.

I'm glad we're in agreement that poor government policies are problematic, but the point is that current government policies are problematic. They're also destructive.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Paul Craig Roberts: "America Is A Gulag"
« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2015, 04:42:09 pm »

We shipped our Capitalism to China and other East Asian countries to avoid industry's polluting effects on America while profiting off their cheap labor.

Want to see what unfettered markets would do to our world?

Just note the recent huge explosion that spewed cyanide and killed thousands of fish in a coastal town in China. That's a crime against the world in my book. Criminal minds span all socioeconomic classes and nations. The clever ones that are wealthy can hide it and beat the wrap in so many ways. What distinguishes the ones at top when they finally get caught is that their prison stay has better views.

We're using America's economy and government oversight and regulations to create a pristine environment where rich people can build sprawling gated communities in remote beautiful areas of America making them impossible to afford for the rest of the 99%'er population. Get rid of the trailer dwellers living off the grid. If it weren't for Native American reservations the rich would have it all.

Location, location, location! Homeless in paradise is the only solution for the those at the bottom of the economic scale who have no chance for a decent life. If they can avoid getting beaten by cops or imprisoned for vagrancy, they just might make it.
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amolitor

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Re: Paul Craig Roberts: "America Is A Gulag"
« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2015, 04:47:16 pm »

With respect, Russ, nobody has ever seen an unfettered market of any size greater than chaps trading a few baskets for a few arrowheads.

What people call "unfettered markets" are really "markets which leave unregulated the things I would prefer to be unregulated, while regulating the things I think ought to be regulated".

And I think I am going to bow out of this discussion now. Gentlemen know that men can be friends without agreeing on every point, and when to move on to other topics, I think. And, while I am certainly no gentleman, I have met a couple here and there, and I took a few notes.
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RSL

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Re: Paul Craig Roberts: "America Is A Gulag"
« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2015, 04:58:21 pm »

Sounds like a good plan.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Paul Craig Roberts: "America Is A Gulag"
« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2015, 05:35:40 pm »

... Gentlemen know that men can be friends without agreeing on every point...

Amen, brother!

mezzoduomo

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Re: Paul Craig Roberts: "America Is A Gulag"
« Reply #37 on: August 23, 2015, 07:37:02 pm »

"Paranoia,
(the destroyahh!)"


Paranoia, pessimism, cynicism...and confirmation bias.
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hjulenissen

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Re: Paul Craig Roberts: "America Is A Gulag"
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2015, 01:53:55 am »

You should be asking those other nations how they manage corruption and petty crime.
 Also can we trust how they collect statistics on how many people are murdered in their country? Maybe the US has more technology and sophisticated ways of finding the bad guy and collecting this data which brings our numbers up. Maybe we're more efficient in this way.

Just because one doesn't see crime, doesn't mean it's not happening and that applies to all nations.
It is interesting to compare Scandinavia to the US. We share a common popular culture, a common religious background, and a significant number of US citizens can trace their origins back to scandinavians.

According to this source, the US have 756 people in jail per 100.000. Norway and Denmark have 94/87. That is about 8.4x:
https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fengsel#Befolkningsstatistikk

In Norway, about 0.71 people were killed (in 2006) per 100.000, while in the US the corresponding number was 5,62. That is 7.9x. The link says that comparing figures between countries is error-prone, but that Norway seems to have one of the lowest rates in the world.
https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drap

I believe that having big cities is a factor. The US have some really big cities, and those tends to have more crime than rural parts. If Scandinavia had many million+ cities, we would probably have more crime as well. But this is hardly sufficient or even the largest factor.

Having access to guns is an obvious possibility, but while the US is #1 on the list of civilian firearms (88.8 per 100), Norway is #11 (31.6 per 100). That is 0.36x
http://www.gunpolicy.org

I do not think that Scandinavia lags behind the US when it comes to the general "level of law", the organization of our state,  public corruption, or anything of that nature that scales with size. Being 5 million people naturally means that the absolute levels of budgets and number of employees in e.g. the police will be lower than in a 250 million people nation.

While the image of "the self-made man" seems to be important to many US citizens, social mobility is actually lower in the US than in many other western countries. This means that if your parents are poor, chances are that you yourself will be poor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility

I spoke to a retired social worker the last time I was in the states. He was quite convincing that the changes in the 50s/60s, where the middle class moved out of the cities into suburbs (where a car was needed), leaving the central parts to "the remainders" was problematic. When people of different social status*) are mixed, they seem to be better equippet to pressure politicians into prioritizing a neighbourhood. Those who have issues may get help, or they may limit their excesses. Kids will have a wide range of role models. In short, dividing the population into those who could afford a car (and a new home) and those who could not carried a number of problems to society.


I think that a significant obstacle for a sensible discussion on this topic is that it is nearly as politically loaded as climate change. Are people in jail because (only) they are bad people? Do we have jails only to make life miserable to those bad people (and scare them or their friends into becoming good people)? Do we have laws because we want them to be followed, or because we think they make society better? Are the laws shaped to make life easier for some, and harder for others? Are the police and law system as eager to investigate and jail white people wearing suits as other classes of society? Do we punish police officers for misusing the trust that society shows them? If what you are doing today does not seem to work, will doubling up on it make things any better?

-h
*)Not only salary levels, but the degree of alcohol problems, psychological problems, language abilities etc
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 02:19:12 am by hjulenissen »
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HSakols

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Re: Paul Craig Roberts: "America Is A Gulag"
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2015, 09:31:13 am »

Maybe I should stay out of this but here it goes. 

As an elementary school teacher, I have read about a very progressive whole child approach to education in I believe Finland.  It seems to work. Scandinavia has an incredibly high literacy rate.  Meanwhile here in the states we give ridiculous standardized tests to kids that are in 3rd grade.  I personally graduated from a private school because the one size fits all approach didn't work with me.  I now stick with public education because it is patriotic and the backbone of democracy.  I'd like to think my classroom is different.   The county I live in (Mariposa, CA) has never had an educational bond pass - sad. 

Now you respond and call me a socialist / commie  ;D
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